Ellen Rae Greenberg. Was it suicide or homicide?

In this podcast I discuss the true crime story of Ellen Rae Greenberg mysterious death.

Let me know what you think of her crime.

The Mysterious Death of Ellen Rae Greenburg: Was It Suicide or Homicide?



MEDIA LINK: Ellen Rae Greenberg: Suicide or homicide? The 27-year-old teacher was found dead in her Philadelphia kitchen in 2011.

 

[Regina]

I've never expected that the parents would ever accept that it was suicide.
I've seen it in other cases- even in cases of accidental death, where apparently, it's easier to believe someone else was responsible.

 

[Guess Who]

I've never expected that the parents would ever accept that it was suicide.
I've seen it in other cases- even in cases of accidental death, where apparently, it's easier to believe someone else was responsible.

This one is not one of those though, but I definitely get your point. There is no physical way she could have done this to herself when the one to get neck alone would have incompacitated her.

 

[Regina]

This one is not one of those though, but I definitely get your point. There is no physical way she could have done this to herself when the one to get neck alone would have incompacitated her.

We obviously don't agree but thanks for sharing that you get my point!

 

[Guess Who]

We obviously don't agree but thanks for sharing that you get my point!

Did you see the autopsy report? That's why they changed it to not suicide.

 

[Regina]

Did you see the autopsy report? That's why they changed it to not suicide.

I don't remember but I think I must have. I'm aware of all of the injuries...
And I don't remember what the first ruling was. My understanding is that after consultation with investigators, it was "changed" from homicide to suicide but I don't know whether the homicide ruling was official. Maybe it was and I just don't remember.
Anyway, I don't know what the ruling is now from that particular ME but it appears it must be undertermined.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I've never expected that the parents would ever accept that it was suicide.
I've seen it in other cases- even in cases of accidental death, where apparently, it's easier to believe someone else was responsible.

You know, I get it, and what you mean but this just seems in no way a suicide. At minimum it should be ruled undetermined as they CANNOT be sure.

That's one of my biggest problems in many... It should be NO RULING.

And LE and above have been so nasty to the parents here...

I respectfully disagree with you in this one...

I sit in pain these days very moment and I am supposed to believe Ellen stabbed herself in places not common to doing it oneself and when in pain continued doing so...??? I don't buy it, not for a minute... Not with this relationship... I don't have trouble believing in suicide when the facts fit in any case but buy into harming and hurting oneself over and over and over? Nope. In places that are hardly reachable? No.

I mean are you thinking she was trying to frame him? Now that's out there...Very much so. I'm sorry.

But back to my main point, no case should have a cause of death if it can't be certain. It should be undetermined and held open. Period.

In this one I believe HE did this. And they have fought it being further looked into so hard it is beyond so ridiculous.

Good morning by the way. I hope we can stick to any disagreement is just what it is. Always just a debate and with respect. Hope all is going well with you, as I always do.

 

[GrandmaBear]

For anyone interested, Surviving the Survivor covers this one a fair amount and has had the parents on as well. They cover quite a few, but not a lot cover this one, and they do... If interested, it is a good place to hear the other parts of this, and to hear the parents... And the problems and issues here...

 

[Regina]

You know, I get it, and what you mean but this just seems in no way a suicide. At minimum it should be ruled undetermined as they CANNOT be sure.

That's one of my biggest problems in many... It should be NO RULING.

And LE and above have been so nasty to the parents here...

I respectfully disagree with you in this one...

I sit in pain these days very moment and I am supposed to believe Ellen stabbed herself in places not common to doing it oneself and when in pain continued doing so...??? I don't buy it, not for a minute... Not with this relationship... I don't have trouble believing in suicide when the facts fit in any case but buy into harming and hurting oneself over and over and over? Nope. In places that are hardly reachable? No.

I mean are you thinking she was trying to frame him? Now that's out there...Very much so. I'm sorry.

But back to my main point, no case should have a cause of death if it can't be certain. It should be undetermined and held open. Period.

In this one I believe HE did this. And they have fought it being further looked into so hard it is beyond so ridiculous.

Good morning by the way. I hope we can stick to any disagreement is just what it is. Always just a debate and with respect. Hope all is going well with you, as I always do.

I think she was mentally ill.

(Likewise and good morning!)

 

[GrandmaBear]

I think she was mentally ill.

(Likewise and good morning!)

I know of the ones who tried to push the mentally ill thing. Let's say she even was, I can't make what happened work... I do not buy it.

I do appreciate the different points of view on some cases and the willingness to discuss and debate and never go we take it personally, imo. I enjoy friendly debate. I truly think some these days think such is like war. Lol. I will debate you and buy you lunch tomorrow lol. It's never personal.

I just do not see suicide here.

Again, I think the ever bigger thing to me is they need to stop ruling anything if it is not 100 percent. If they don't know it is heart attack, drowning, suffocation, strangling, death by gunshot, etc. THEN it needs to be ruled undetermined imo. I am curious if you would agree with that? I don't think they should be ruling or closing out anything if they can't be sure...

 

[Kimster]

I don’t know about this case one way or the other, but I really do believe it should have further investigation just from some of the pictures that I’ve seen online. However, once they ruled it as suicide and then take somebody to court and say that she was murdered, it’s going to be harder because the defense will always have that suicide determination to lean on.

 

[Regina]

I know of the ones who tried to push the mentally ill thing. Let's say she even was, I can't make what happened work... I do not buy it.

I do appreciate the different points of view on some cases and the willingness to discuss and debate and never go we take it personally, imo. I enjoy friendly debate. I truly think some these days think such is like war. Lol. I will debate you and buy you lunch tomorrow lol. It's never personal.

I just do not see suicide here.

Again, I think the ever bigger thing to me is they need to stop ruling anything if it is not 100 percent. If they don't know it is heart attack, drowning, suffocation, strangling, death by gunshot, etc. THEN it needs to be ruled undetermined imo. I am curious if you would agree with that? I don't think they should be ruling or closing out anything if they can't be sure...

Oh, of course, I agree. They should be reasonably certain of any particular ruling and always willing to consider new and/ or additional info.!

 

[Regina]

ME's report.

Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office autopsy report of Ellen Greenberg

www.documentcloud.org

 

[Regina]

Wecht's report.

https://crimetimelines.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Ellen-Greenberg-Autopsy-2012-Wecht-RPT.pdf

 

[Guess Who]

Brian Entin on X: "Big development in the Ellen Greenberg case -- after 14 YEARS the medical examiner says he does not believe Ellen's death was a suicide. Will it ever officially be changed? What does @GovernorShapiro have to say about this? I'll be in Philly this week. https://t.co/Sa9x2wlqgZ" / X


after 14 YEARS the medical examiner says he does not believe Ellen's death was a suicide.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I don’t know about this case one way or the other, but I really do believe it should have further investigation just from some of the pictures that I’ve seen online. However, once they ruled it as suicide and then take somebody to court and say that she was murdered, it’s going to be harder because the defense will always have that suicide determination to lean on.

I think it is also the ego thing, and the $$/liability thing... The stubborn thing even. This is what the professionals said happened and that is IT family, and deal with it...

Good point that the D always has the S determination...

I don't buy it. If she did this herself well then show such could even occur? You've seen pics online, most of us know it is nearly impossible if not entirely impossible...

 

[GrandmaBear]

Oh, of course, I agree. They should be reasonably certain of any particular ruling and always willing to consider new and/ or additional info.!

Yes, thanks, I think we should all agree on that one, no rulings when can't prove and no closing of cases when can't prove--they remain open and worked on... Not sure who, if anyone, would disagree with that one at least...

 

[GrandmaBear]

ME's report.

Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office autopsy report of Ellen Greenberg

www.documentcloud.org

I just can't right now, you and Tresir are super b with links. Pretty certain I've also seen most things and links during the years. Today just is not a day I am going to manage all... I have a WM delivery which I wish was long past... I did get like 3 hours of sleep... Not much but seems like a blessing...

I count on no upset between us. You know the thing of being able to debate and disagree and yet be friends on another level, and civil I think some of our younger generations don't know is not always serious, yet some older have become that way (my mom would be an example lol.

I appreciate you. We don't always agree, and do argue and debate but you etc know it is just the case and not everything in life...

I seriously think they try to divide and conquer and it works. But if people can talk, as we do, even if not always in agreement, well that is how change comes or can be made.... More people should try it it the way it used to be..

 

[Kimster]

I didn't see this posted yet, but I may have missed it. Looks like LE in Philadelphia are officially reopening an investigation.

Suicide or homicide? Ellen Greenberg case getting new look by Philadelphia medical examiner's office

Before a civil case could get underway Monday, the family of Ellen Greenberg and Philadelphia officials reached an agreement to reopen the teacher's death investigation more than 14 years after she was found stabbed to death in her Manayunk apartment.

www.nbcphiladelphia.com

Looks like they decided to do it in the face of a civil trial.

 

[Regina]

Yes, thanks, I think we should all agree on that one, no rulings when can't prove and no closing of cy

It's occurred to me that the issue I've had with ME's rulings is when the ME isn't decisive when I think they could be.
In this case, I'm not impressed with this ME's "something other than suicide" and I'm disappointed (isn't the first time) with Wecht's "suspicious for homicide".

I think what happened in this case is that LE spoke too soon, much like the LE in the Debbie Collier case, where the initial impression of the scene was that it was homicide.

 

[Guess Who]

I didn't see this posted yet, but I may have missed it. Looks like LE in Philadelphia are officially reopening an investigation.

Suicide or homicide? Ellen Greenberg case getting new look by Philadelphia medical examiner's office

Before a civil case could get underway Monday, the family of Ellen Greenberg and Philadelphia officials reached an agreement to reopen the teacher's death investigation more than 14 years after she was found stabbed to death in her Manayunk apartment.

www.nbcphiladelphia.com

Looks like they decided to do it in the face of a civil trial.

Probably afraid of the info that might come out.