Ellen Rae Greenberg. Was it suicide or homicide?

In this podcast I discuss the true crime story of Ellen Rae Greenberg mysterious death.

Let me know what you think of her crime.

The Mysterious Death of Ellen Rae Greenburg: Was It Suicide or Homicide?



MEDIA LINK: Ellen Rae Greenberg: Suicide or homicide? The 27-year-old teacher was found dead in her Philadelphia kitchen in 2011.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

Mother of woman whose death was ruled suicide says new info proves murder

EXCLUSIVE: Ellen Greenberg’s death by 20 stab wounds - including to the back of her neck - was ruled suicide. Her mother Sandra, who has spent 13 years fighting for justice and says she will ‘never give up’, says bombshell new testimony may finally prove her daughter was murdered

www.the-independent.com

‘It’s an obvious murder’: Mother of teacher whose death by 20 stab wounds was ruled suicide rages as bombshell new testimony may finally prove her case​

APRIL 2024

For 13 years, Ellen Greenberg’s parents have fought to prove she did not die by suicide, but that she was murdered – and now, new bombshell testimony could make their case.

In a shocking development that came earlier this week during a hearing for a civil lawsuit in the beloved Philadelphia teacher’s brutal 2011 death, the family’s attorney said the state’s former assistant district attorney is set to testify that her body was likely moved after she had been fatally stabbed at least 20 times.

“It’s an obvious murder,” Ellen’s mother, Sandra Greenberg told The Independent in reaction to Tuesday’s hearing in Philadelphia Common Pleas Court.

“You can’t make this up.”

On 26 January 2011, Ellen was found by her fiancé, Samuel Goldberg, dead in the kitchen of their Manayunk, Philadelphia apartment. She was slumped against the cabinets, her legs splayed out in front of her.

The 27-year-old elementary school teacher had at least 20 stab wounds, many to the back of her head and neck. A 10-inch knife was lodged in her chest.

Following an autopsy at the time, pathologist Dr. Marlon Osbourne of the Philadelphia Medical Examiner’s office ruled her death a homicide, citing “multiple stab wounds by an unknown person.”

But with little evidence to go on, the case stalled and months later, on 11 April, Dr. Osbourne amended her death certificate, changing the manner of death to suicide.

According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, the medical examiner was told that police were “leaning” toward suicide and looking at “mental issues” she might have had, despite her family’s pushback.

Records show Ellen was being treated for anxiety at the time, but the family’s experts hired over the years have found it’s unlikely her medications contributed to suicidal thoughts.

“She was brutally murdered, stabbed once, twice, 20 times,” Ms Greenberg said of their only child. “That’s rage. She did not do that to herself.”

Through the years, the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania couple have fought to change the ruling from suicide back to either homicide or undetermined manner of death, by enlisting in their team of experts and conducting an investigation that disputed the suicide finding, and say it was changed at the insistence of the police.

“It’s been 13 years and the city has been fighting us every step of the way,” Ms Greenberg told The Independent. “Ellen was a Philadelphia girl, she deserves better from her city.”

At the hearing on Tuesday, the Greenbergs’ attorney, Joseph Podraza, in an effort to push forward with a sworn deposition of former Assisstant District Attorney Guy D’Andrea, revealed that D’Andrea had a previously unknown conversation with the city’s then-medical examiner, Dr. Samuel Gulino and Gulino then determined that Ellen’s death was a homicide.

“D’Andrea had firsthand knowledge of the file and evidence,” Mr Podraza told the judge. “Dr. Gulino told D’Andrea, ‘this is a homicide.’”

Mr Gulino allegedly told Mr D’Andrea that Ellen’s body had been in a “supine position for a period of time,” he continued.

This means she was flat on her back and not slumped in a seated position against a kitchen cabinet as she was reportedly found, according to the hearing.

Mr Podraza said that the medical examiner told Mr D’Andrea that her body was likely moved and that they were able to tell by how the blood on Ellen’s face had dried up.

He also said there was no evidence that emergency responders were the ones who moved her body.


Mr D’Andrea is also set to argue that, according to the medical examiner, one of the stab wounds would have "immediately incapacitated" her, making self-infliction unlikely.

The court is allowing the Greenbergs’ attorneys to move forward with discovery and depositions in the case. Their deadline is 6 May.

Ms Greenberg said she doesn’t want to get her hopes up after 13 years of roadblocks and disappointment, but said she is pleased with the court’s decision to allow Mr D’Andrea to be deposed and believes that he can bring new evidence to the investigation.

Stabbed 20 times, with some stab wounds on the back of her head?! And that looks like suicide?!

 

[Tresir]

I think part of this settlement probably included an agreement on taking another look at the case, and some other things. I don't see her parents settling just for money and not ensuring some of these other things.

You know, I don't know if it played in butt Philly is rife with crime and LE and politicians want to keep the crime stats down, especially with violent crime and homicides in particular. Others think it was the connections he/his family had.

I know MEs also have to or are supposed to not just take their own findings on an examination but information from LE on what they saw, determined, etc. LE kind of decided this was a suicide....

So what is your belief in this one. I do not believe it was any suicide.

I would like to know how anyone else barred and locked the door from the inside and why there were two post mortem wounds in her neck.

 

[Takeitfromme]

I would like to know how anyone else barred and locked the door from the inside and why there were two post mortem wounds in her neck.

I'd like to know with all the evidence that's obvious why this was ruled a suicide in the first place... I'm not totally up to date on this case

 

[Regina]

No, I said no such thing. In fact I said with Collier, I could go either way. I was resistant at first when they suddenly changed it, but it was suddenly changed as you know. They've managed to mostly convince me (LE). It's when there are things in them when I look at all that it is almost impossible to believe the victim could have done oneself, OR that one would find hard to believe any freak accident could have caused, OR too many of those things.

There are unusual cases of all kinds, doesn't mean they didn't happen, including unusual homicides with strange facts.

I was n't saying any such thing at all.

And good morning!

Good morning!
Sorry that I must have misunderstood what you said.
Re Debbie Collier, for me, there's no doubt it was suicide but the reason I mentioned her case is because of LE's premature statements to the media, not because it's another mysterious/ suspicious death type of case.
In that case, I don't remember whether the ME's opinion was ever mentioned, nor whether he had one but I do remember LE repeatedly telling the media that she was "targeted" and I'm sure they mentioned elements of the scene that caused them to think that way. Now, I'd watched the case unfold and never saw the involvement of anyone else and also, I'm sure it was helpful to have known of a similar case where the person set themselves on fire and so that might be why I saw particular aspects of the scene in a different way.
It sounds to me that in this case, the ME may have told LE that it looked like homicide when he actually hadn't had enough info at that time to determine manner, period.

 

[Tresir]

I'd like to know with all the evidence that's obvious why this was ruled a suicide in the first place... I'm not totally up to date on this case

It's a strange mixture of wounds - some are just a couple of millimetres deep, like self harming but others are deep and possibly fatal. Then there are two that are determined to be post mortem.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Good morning!
Sorry that I must have misunderstood what you said.
Re Debbie Collier, for me, there's no doubt it was suicide but the reason I mentioned her case is because of LE's premature statements to the media, not because it's another mysterious/ suspicious death type of case.
In that case, I don't remember whether the ME's opinion was ever mentioned, nor whether he had one but I do remember LE repeatedly telling the media that she was "targeted" and I'm sure they mentioned elements of the scene that caused them to think that way. Now, I'd watched the case unfold and never saw the involvement of anyone else and also, I'm sure it was helpful to have known of a similar case where the person set themselves on fire and so that might be why I saw particular aspects of the scene in a different way.
It sounds to me that in this case, the ME may have told LE that it looked like homicide when he actually hadn't had enough info at that time to determine manner, period.

I followed it from day one as well and it was not only LE but things relating to family, what she was doing, where she was headed, there were some videos where other vehicles were talked of that were in those videos, etc. Perhaps they should have said nothing, each LE dept. is different, and it was most definitely a very unusual type of case that would I think lead most people both average people and LE, etc. to think it was probably homicide at first.

I know that is why you mentioned it, because they spoke and then later changed opinions, etc. and perhaps spoke too soon.

The families in both cases are also night and day, not that that was what you were talking of, as I know it wasn't.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I would like to know how anyone else barred and locked the door from the inside and why there were two post mortem wounds in her neck.

Ante mortem wounds but ruled suicide... Hmm. Yah right. What did they claim, they were from prior abuse but not a murder...?

THe door being locked from the inside I think is something LE really hung their hat on and just made assumptions because of it as well.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I'd like to know with all the evidence that's obvious why this was ruled a suicide in the first place... I'm not totally up to date on this case

Pretty much what the parents and most others, including most of us here I believe, have been yelling about since early on.

 

[RoundPeg]

It's a strange mixture of wounds - some are just a couple of millimetres deep, like self harming but others are deep and possibly fatal. Then there are two that are determined to be post mortem.

Is that in the autopsy report? I'm developing an interest in this.

 

[GrandmaBear]

STS (Surviving the Suvivor) has done a ton of shows on this case and the Greenberg parents have been on the show too. I'ts almost always a very good show with quality guests and input.

Just mentioning if anyone is interested.

The parents have spent millions on this and will never quit and I think the City although they thought they could get them to over time and enough stonewalling and enough money cost to the parents thought they eventually would. And sadly it isn't just the City who has done that.

The case over the past few years resulted in a lot more people knowing about it which probably helped too, plus the parents will not quit and good for them. Still not enough people know about this case imo but a lot more do now than used to.

Jmo.

 

[Takeitfromme]

Is that in the autopsy report? I'm developing an interest in this.

Me too

 

[Tresir]

Ante mortem wounds but ruled suicide... Hmm. Yah right. What did they claim, they were from prior abuse but not a murder...?

THe door being locked from the inside I think is something LE really hung their hat on and just made assumptions because of it as well.

No they were fresh but had not bled. They said possibly there wasn't time to haemorrhage before the fatal wound was inflicted.

 

[Tresir]

Is that in the autopsy report? I'm developing an interest in this.

i think I read it here, from one of the reports upthread.

ETA link is in my post upthread #76.

Here's the extract.

However, there was something unusual Emery discovered during the course of her exam.
She observed three injuries of note to Ellen’s spinal column. One, to the spinal cord tissue
itself, was done during the course of Ellen’s autopsy, she said.
But there were two other cuts — one to the bone and ligaments in the back of Greenberg’s
spinal column and a corresponding cut to the dura — that were from a “bona fide sharp force
injury” and were not done at autopsy, she said.
What was notable about those injuries was there was no hemorrhaging around them, Emery
testified, saying, “Lack of hemorrhage means no pulse.”
She offered three possibilities for the lack of hemorrhaging: There wasn’t enough time
between when the wound was inflicted and when Ellen died for it to hemorrhage; the wound
didn’t disrupt the tissue enough to cause a response — or Ellen was already dead when the
wound was inflicted.
If the cut was administered while Ellen was still alive, Emery said she’d have expected to see
hemorrhaging.
“And by the fact that now the dura is not demonstrating hemorrhage, as you found also the
spinal column didn’t, would that weigh a little bit more in suggesting Ellen was dead at the
time this wound was administered?” Podraza asked.
“Yes,” Emery said.
Podraza called this “amazing new information.”
A month after her deposition, the city filed a written declaration by Emery, in which she said
she didn’t fully understand the scope of questions posed to her at deposition by the city’s
attorney, and presented several other possibilities for the lack of hemorrhaging including: that
nothing was injured along the wound path; that bleeding in other areas of the body prevented
bleeding in that area; or that the injury could have been done at the time of autopsy.
“I view the declaration as a deliberate submission to try and cloud her testimony, but it
doesn’t change what her testimony was,” Podraza said.

 

[Guess Who]

Hmmmm. Surely not any favors done here. /s


Parents continue legal fight over 'puzzling' suicide ruling in stabbing death - Daily Telegraph NZ

The case has raised numerous questions, including why Sam Goldberg, Greenberg’s fiancé, who found her body, sent a series of angry and demanding text messages before calling 911, and why his uncle, a prominent Pennsylvania judge, was allowed to remove Greenberg’s belongings, including her computer and cellphone, from the apartment.​

 

[Guess Who]

Judge dumbfounded by error in Ellen Greenberg 'suicide' probe —after teacher was found stabbed 20 times

Between 5:32 p.m. and 5:54 pm, Goldberg’s last nine texts to Greenberg included the following: “Hello,” “open the door,” “what r u doin,” “im getting pissed,” “hello,” “you better have an excuse,” “what the f***,” “ahhh,” and “u have no idea.”
Goldberg called 911 at 6:33 p.m., and Greenberg was pronounced dead by medics shortly thereafter.
A forensic pathologist with the city medical examiner’s office at the time, Dr. Marlon Osbourne, initially ruled Greenberg’s death a homicide, according to court documents. Then he reversed course after meeting with police behind closed doors and officially ruled it a suicide.

 

[Tresir]

Did they determine a TOD by body temperature or rigor mortis at all or by anything else like her texts or calls or phone location for example ?

 

[Regina]

Besides reports from Osbourne and Wecht, the following link includes an Investigative Report, a report from another neuro.path, Waynes Ross, a report from Henry Lee and a letter from the Attn. Gen., Joe Grace.

Just to be clear, I (still) believe manner is suicide.

Ellen Greenberg files

www.documentcloud.org

 

[Guess Who]

Brian Entin on X: "If Ellen Greenberg’s coffin is sealed and there has not been water intrusion — it is possible DNA could still be under her nails. No decisions have been made at this point about whether to exhume the body. https://t.co/UK2S1xPGAY" / X

 

[Guess Who]

Stabbed 20 times, with some stab wounds on the back of her head?! And that looks like suicide?!

How does one stab themselves in the back of the neck, to the point of severing the spinal cord, get themselves leaning with their back against anything? They can't move themselves after severing their spinal cord and you can't stab the back of your own neck if the back of your neck is against something solid.

 

[Tresir]

How does one stab themselves in the back of the neck, to the point of severing the spinal cord, get themselves leaning with their back against anything? They can't move themselves after severing their spinal cord and you can't stab the back of your own neck if the back of your neck is against something solid.

Her spinal cord wasn't severed. Where did you get that from?