1982 Lake Waco Murders

This case is technically "solved"; however, many questions remain (not the least of which is: was an innocent men executed?). I was living in Waco for several years; left a couple of months before this happened. I knew Vic Feazell casually- he was having trysts w/ my room mate. My impression of him was/is *smarmy*- not just because he was married & screwing around, but because he literally came across that way- just exuded ego, anything for attention, nasty personality in general. Also, the media makes this case sound like an aberration in Waco, and, honestly, it wasn't. I sobered up in 1980; in early 1981 an acquaintance from the program & her boyfriend went to Koehne Park to try to score some weed; the boyfriend was shot and killed. It wasn't at all unusual for people to be shot, stabbed, etc. in Waco- I worked in medicine, and not a weekend went by without shootings & stabbings coming into the E.R. Anyway, will comment more later; hope to hear others' opinions!
<snip>
The 1982 Lake Waco Murders refers to the deaths of three teenagers (two females, one male) near Lake Waco in Waco, Texas, in July 1982. The police investigation and criminal trials that followed the murders lasted for more than a decade and resulted in the execution of one man, David Wayne Spence, as well as life prison sentences for two other men allegedly involved in the crime, Anthony and Gilbert Melendez. A fourth suspect, Muneer Mohammad Deeb, was eventually let out after spending several years in prison.
<snip>
On July 13, 1982, two fishermen discovered the bodies of Jill Montgomery, 17, Raylene Rice, 17, and Kenneth Franks, 18, in Speegleville Park, near Lake Waco. Franks' body was found propped against a tree, with sunglasses over his eyes. All three victims had been repeatedly stabbed, and both of the women's throats had been slashed. There was also evidence that the women had been sexually assaulted.[1] <snip>
The investigation was initially headed by Lieutenant Marvin Horton of the Waco police department, with assistance from Detective Ramon Salinas and Patrolman Mike Nicoletti. Truman Simons, who was with the Waco police department at the time and had been one of the first respondents on the scene of the crime, also assisted the investigation in an informal capacity.

Initially, the investigation revealed a number of different possible suspects, including James Russell Bishop [2] and Terry Harper, local residents who had been tied to the area at the time of the crime. However, both men were found to have credible alibis (Harper's was later proven false when Spence's attorneys investigated it), and in September of that year, the investigation began to stall and was marked as "suspended." Simons, who had taken a significant personal interest in the case, requested that he be given permission to continue investigating the case, which he was subsequently granted.

<snip>The case languished for nearly a year, until the work of Simons and others had produced enough evidence to again arrest Deeb and three alleged accomplices in the plot.[4] Deeb had had a life insurance policy for one employee at his convenience store who bore a striking resemblance to Jill Montgomery. Simons hypothesized that Deeb had hired David Wayne Spence to murder her, and that Spence and two friends, Anthony and Gilbert Melendez, had seen the victims and mistaken Montgomery for the target. They speculated that the other two victims had been murdered because they were witnesses.[5]
<snip>
Deeb, Spence, and the Melendez brothers were all indicted late in 1983. District Attorney Vic Feazell, whose office had been instrumental in continuing to pursue new evidence in the case, would manage the prosecution against the accused.[6] Spence and both Melendez brothers were, at the time, already serving prison sentences for various crimes.[7]

The evidence against the men largely consisted of testimony provided by other inmates, who claimed that the defendants had admitted to their involvement in the killings in private discussions, as well as confessions made by Anthony and Gilbert Melendez. Also considered was the confession Deeb had made to the two young women about his involvement in the killings, as well as the life insurance policy he had taken out for his employee. Bite marks on the victims were also presented as evidence of Spence’s involvement.

The trials began in May, with testimony from dental specialists supplementing the evidence that had been provided by the prison witnesses. In June, Anthony Melendez pleaded guilty to the crimes and was sentenced to life imprisonment.[8] Spence’s case was badly damaged by Melendez’ confession, which played a key role in his eventual conviction in July 1984. Unlike Melendez, Spence was sentenced to death for his involvement in the killings.[8]

<snip>
In 1986, true-crime writer Carlton Stowers published his account of the murders and police investigation surrounding the Lake Waco murders, Careless Whispers. The book focused heavily on Truman Simons’ involvement in producing the evidence which led to the convictions.
<snip>
Controversy
Following the convictions of Spence and Deeb, some began to question the substance of the evidence on which the convictions had been based and the methods through which it had been obtained. Forensic odontologist Homer Campbell was proven to have made false assessments at around the same time, and when a blind panel examined the alleged bite marks and a mold of Spence's teeth, three said that the marks were not even bite marks, and the other two matched them to a Kansas housewife.[citation needed] Three of the seven people who said Spence confessed later stated that Simons had offered them privileges in order to secure their testimony and had fed them info on what to say.[citation needed] Spence's lawyers also discovered an alternate suspect in Terry Harper, a local thug with a history of knife-related offenses. Six witnesses testified to seeing Harper and his friends in the park on the night of the murder, and others claimed that he had boasted of committing the murders (some even said that he did this even before the crime was made public).[citation needed] Also, one of the victims, Kenneth Franks, was later found to have been an associate of Harper's in the drug trade.[citation needed] When Harper was interviewed by Spence's lawyers, he claimed that he was at home watching Dynasty; records showed that Dynasty did not air that night.[citation needed] Brian Pardo, a wealthy Texas businessman, met Spence a few months prior to his execution and, on becoming convinced of his innocence, launched a campaign to delay his death sentence so that a new trial could be commenced. His efforts were unsuccessful, but they brought attention to the case following Spence’s execution.

Bob Herbert wrote a series of articles for The New York Times in 1997, with headlines such as “The Wrong Man” and “The Impossible Crime,” in which he claimed that the case had been “cobbled […] together from the fabricated and often preposterous testimony of inmates who were granted all manner of favors in return.” [12]

1982 Lake Waco murders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BKL67]

GarAndMo39, to answer your last question, yes Waco PD looked around the area to some degree mostly around the car down to the water, remember the check stubs , so the thoroughness of any search they conducted is in question. And the area where the murders occurred might have actually been outside the park. The killers took the road, at the time it was more of just a dirt path along the golf course next to Koehne Park, entering the woods from there..

 

[BKL67]

Blood was found in David's car but it very minute amounts, it couldn't even be determined if it was human or animal with some of the spots found. With the spots that could be identified as human, all they could determine was the blood type, which matched Christine Juhl's, so it was concluded it was her blood and had gotten there after she tried to commit suicide around the same time as the murders.

 

[GarAndMo39]

GarAndMo39, I'm sorry I bouncing around, I'm just going along as things come to me. But back to the Deeb document, you said in that document it states Kenneth was killed in David's car, I could be wrong but I don't recall that, that's why I mentioned the second document because in that document Deeb or his attorney is arguing that David's car wasn't even running at the time and I would add that is what Christine Juhl now says even though that is not what she said at the time. And Deeb wanted to call Christine and the mechanic to testify for the defense in his original trial, Christine refused and the mechanic had already passed away by the time of Deeb's first trial. No one ever testified that Kenneth was killed in the car, both the Melendez brothers testified they didn't know when Kenneth was killed in the chain of events, they didn't see it happen.

Yeah, the whole subject of cars/vehicles in this case is super confusing. Seems to me that all the suspects' vehicles should've been processed for prints, blood, etc. (including the Pinto). But I have no idea whether any or all of them could have borrowed cars or trucks, or had access to multiple vehicles. Just a big cluster, IMO. I'd add Mr. Franks' car- hell there are so many possibilities, especially since most worked in construction/painting/etc.

 

[BKL67]

GarAndMo39, again you are correct about Williams being released, I always get the two names mixed up, but he was released on a technicality, which should be in the article you shared. Testimony from a witness that heard Washington make a incriminating comment should not have been allowed in Williams trial. He could have been re-trialed but again keep in mind the state of things at that point, Vic Feazell was no longer D.A. his old adversary or family member of that adversary was now D.A., Waco PD officers were testifying for the defense it was a mess, even if the D.A. wanted to re-try Williams, which I doubt was the case, things never go well when a police department and D.A. office don't agree, remind you of JoBenet Ramsey and Trayvon Martin.. This is what I meant when I posted earlier that this opened up a Pandora's box, when cops and prosecutors are battling each other those that profit the most are the criminals and this is what was happening in these cases, both the Lake Waco Murders and Juanita White's murder. And yes Washington was released in 2001 after DNA test paid for by Fred Dannen excluded him as the subject that had left the DNA at the crime scene. Two things I have to point out if anyone takes parts in a crime and during the commission of that crime someone is killed even though a participant involved in said crime had nothing to do with the killing is still liable. Washington and Williams were pulled over driving Juanita White's car and had in their possession her purse and ID. This wasn't planted by Truman Simons he wasn't even working with the Waco PD at the time, it was just regular Waco PD patrolman. And another fact that usually goes unreported Washington and Williams were both arrested for other crimes they committed after they were released and were sent back to prison. You don't see the media that was so fast to get on the bandwagon protesting their innocence now sharing with the world they helped free two criminals so they could unleash more crime on society. Silence!!!

 

[GarAndMo39]

@BKL67 , just tossing this out there- do you think the guy whose DNA was found in Juanita White's body (Benny somebody- sorry, can't recall last name) could have been involved in the Lake murders?

 

[GarAndMo39]

GarAndMo39, again you are correct about Williams being released, I always get the two names mixed up, but he was released on a technicality, which should be in the article you shared. Testimony from a witness that heard Washington make a incriminating comment should not have been allowed in Williams trial. He could have been re-trialed but again keep in mind the state of things at that point, Vic Feazell was no longer D.A. his old adversary or family member of that adversary was now D.A., Waco PD officers were testifying for the defense it was a mess, even if the D.A. wanted to re-try Williams, which I doubt was the case, things never go well when a police department and D.A. office don't agree, remind you of JoBenet Ramsey and Trayvon Martin.. This is what I meant when I posted earlier that this opened up a Pandora's box, when cops and prosecutors are battling each other those that profit the most are the criminals and this is what was happening in these cases, both the Lake Waco Murders and Juanita White's murder. And yes Washington was released in 2001 after DNA test paid for by Fred Dannen excluded him as the subject that had left the DNA at the crime scene. Two things I have to point out if anyone takes parts in a crime and during the commission of that crime someone is killed even though a participant involved in said crime had nothing to do with the killing is still liable. Washington and Williams were pulled over driving Juanita White's car and had in their possession her purse and ID. This wasn't planted by Truman Simons he wasn't even working with the Waco PD at the time, it was just regular Waco PD patrolman. And another fact that usually goes unreported Washington and Williams were both arrested for other crimes they committed after they were released and were sent back to prison. You don't see the media that was so fast to get on the bandwagon protesting their innocence now sharing with the world they helped free two criminals so they could unleash more crime on society. Silence!!!

I had no idea they'd been busted for other crimes & sent back to prison! Just goes to show how many scum-bags were involved in this whole mess Regardless, though, they should have been exonerated when the DNA proved they hadn't committed the rape (and, presumably, the murder). FWIW, I'm not thrilled with criminals running loose; frankly, Spence & company were hardly upstanding members of society. But I also firmly believe innocent parties shouldn't be executed- which is why I can't support the death penalty, personally.

 

[GarAndMo39]

GarAndMo39, again you are correct about Williams being released, I always get the two names mixed up, but he was released on a technicality, which should be in the article you shared. Testimony from a witness that heard Washington make a incriminating comment should not have been allowed in Williams trial. He could have been re-trialed but again keep in mind the state of things at that point, Vic Feazell was no longer D.A. his old adversary or family member of that adversary was now D.A., Waco PD officers were testifying for the defense it was a mess, even if the D.A. wanted to re-try Williams, which I doubt was the case, things never go well when a police department and D.A. office don't agree, remind you of JoBenet Ramsey and Trayvon Martin.. This is what I meant when I posted earlier that this opened up a Pandora's box, when cops and prosecutors are battling each other those that profit the most are the criminals and this is what was happening in these cases, both the Lake Waco Murders and Juanita White's murder. And yes Washington was released in 2001 after DNA test paid for by Fred Dannen excluded him as the subject that had left the DNA at the crime scene. Two things I have to point out if anyone takes parts in a crime and during the commission of that crime someone is killed even though a participant involved in said crime had nothing to do with the killing is still liable. Washington and Williams were pulled over driving Juanita White's car and had in their possession her purse and ID. This wasn't planted by Truman Simons he wasn't even working with the Waco PD at the time, it was just regular Waco PD patrolman. And another fact that usually goes unreported Washington and Williams were both arrested for other crimes they committed after they were released and were sent back to prison. You don't see the media that was so fast to get on the bandwagon protesting their innocence now sharing with the world they helped free two criminals so they could unleash more crime on society. Silence!!!

True, but that doesn't make them guilty of murder & rape.

 

[BKL67]

GarAndMo39, I still believe Spence Deeb and the Melendez brothers are guilty. Benny Carroll had just been released from prison a few months before the White murder for another rape he had committed. I don't know how long he was in prison for that offense,. I think three years from the murders in 82 to the in of 85, about the time he was released, would be cutting it close on a rape charge, again just my opinion.

 

[BKL67]

So GarAndMo39, this leads me to your question as to if I find it troubling so many of Truman Simons' cases have been overturned. As far as I know there have only been the two that we are discussing out of the hundreds of cases he worked. I'm more troubled that Muneer Deeb got off, much more on this later. And even with the Williams and Washington case, as I was trying to point out just a few minutes ago about criminal liability, all that was proven was they did not rape Juanita White, it was not their DNA that matched what was found on the vaginal swabs and I will even concede that they probably didn't take part in the murder. But until anyone can come up with a reasonable explanation on how Washington, a individual that had been convicted for auto thief prior to the murders, and Williams came into possession of Juanita White's car, that disappeared the night she was murdered, it was gone the next day when police arrived on the scene, including Washington and Williams, other than Truman Simons planted it on them. How do you plant a stolen car on some one, again remind you they were stopped by the police driving the vehicle. What, Truman Simons decides hey let me give these guys, one he probably knew had a long criminal history that included auto thief, a stolen car and them call the police on them, come on that is ludicrous. To be fair and honest I don't know has much about this case or the Beth Bramlett case I have only read about in connection to the Lake Waco Murders, I haven't read all the police reports and/or trial transcripts, I have enough to keep up on with the Lake Waco Murders. But another thing I would point out; Truman Simons was very instrumentalist in resolving the Beth Bramlett murder a couple years ago and no one seems to have a problem with that. I have more questions about that but again I haven't read the police reports on that case and have only seen what is mentioned about that case in the Lake Waco Murders files.

 

[GarAndMo39]

Please don't think I'm through discussing this, my friend, because I'm far from it! But can you list the evidence that has persuaded you of the guilt of Spence, the Melendez brothers, & Deeb? The reason I ask is that, at this point in time, with what I've read and seen SO FAR, I'm not convinced that there's enough evidence against them to lead me to (hypothetically) vote them guilty on a jury. I also find it interesting that Jill's aunt doesn't think they're guilty (based on what I've read in your blog). Do you know if she has any suspects? (If any such conversations between the 2 of you are confidential, I completely respect that).
Also, may I ask how you became interested in this case? (I'm REALLY glad you did, for the record)!
Oh, and very good question in re: Williams & Washington's possession of the car and Mrs. White's belongings...I'll have to think of a theory or 2 about that!

 

[BKL67]

Now on to Officer Jan Price, Truman Simons and the possible connections between the Lake Waco Murders. The best information you can find on Jan Price is the Michael Hall article in Texas Monthly. She had become a Waco police officer shortly before the Lake Waco Murders and really had nothing to do with that case. By the time of Juanita White's murder I guess she had made detective and was the original investigator assigned to that case, along the way, one day when she went to the D.A.'s office to discuss the case she was told Truman Simons was handling the case, she wasn't vary happy about that development and I guess that could look suspicious. There were already questions about the case. One of the inmates that had testified against David had written a letter stating he had lied when he testified against David. When Juanita White received this letter she took it to an attorney and then the following night she was murdered. After the police sealed the crime scene someone broke in or entered the house and rummaged through the room where Juanita White kept her personal papers including the ones dealing with her son's case. Fingers were pointed at Truman Simons and Vic Feazell the thinking being they were trying to cover their tracks for their misdeeds in the Lake Waco Murders case. But does that really make sense, Vic already had access to the files he didn't need to go find any, is there a chance Juanita had found something and Vic and Truman wanted to find out what she had, they most likely already new about the letter and that Juanita had taken it to a lawyer, many people that the police talked to the day her body was discovered were aware of this. If Juanita had found anything else don't you think we would have heard something about this already, Juanita White wasn't one to keep her mouth shut, apparently that was passed on to David, again the people that the police talked to told them that Juanita was always talking about how she was going to prove her son was innocent. As time passed most people started to believe, as they started to reason things out the cases weren't connected, including the very skeptical and hostile towards Truman Jan Price. The only and most likely connection the two murder cases had in common was Juanita White was going around some shady areas trying to find anything that could help her son and in doing so probably drew the attention of some bad hombres, including Benny Carroll. DarAndMo39, this will have to be all for now. I will try to get back to it in the A.M..

 

[GarAndMo39]

Now on to Officer Jan Price, Truman Simons and the possible connections between the Lake Waco Murders. The best information you can find on Jan Price is the Michael Hall article in Texas Monthly. She had become a Waco police officer shortly before the Lake Waco Murders and really had nothing to do with that case. By the time of Juanita White's murder I guess she had made detective and was the original investigator assigned to that case, along the way, one day when she went to the D.A.'s office to discuss the case she was told Truman Simons was handling the case, she wasn't vary happy about that development and I guess that could look suspicious. There were already questions about the case. One of the inmates that had testified against David had written a letter stating he had lied when he testified against David. When Juanita White received this letter she took it to an attorney and then the following night she was murdered. After the police sealed the crime scene someone broke in or entered the house and rummaged through the room where Juanita White kept her personal papers including the ones dealing with her son's case. Fingers were pointed at Truman Simons and Vic Feazell the thinking being they were trying to cover their tracks for their misdeeds in the Lake Waco Murders case. But does that really make sense, Vic already had access to the files he didn't need to go find any, is there a chance Juanita had found something and Vic and Truman wanted to find out what she had, they most likely already new about the letter and that Juanita had taken it to a lawyer, many people that the police talked to the day her body was discovered were aware of this. If Juanita had found anything else don't you think we would have heard something about this already, Juanita White wasn't one to keep her mouth shut, apparently that was passed on to David, again the people that the police talked to told them that Juanita was always talking about how she was going to prove her son was innocent. As time passed most people started to believe, as they started to reason things out the cases weren't connected, including the very skeptical and hostile towards Truman Jan Price. The only and most likely connection the two murder cases had in common was Juanita White was going around some shady areas trying to find anything that could help her son and in doing so probably drew the attention of some bad hombres, including Benny Carroll. DarAndMo39, this will have to be all for now. I will try to get back to it in the A.M..

Thanks @BKL67 - I'll look forward to hearing more as soon as you have time! Goodnight...

 

[BKL67]

@GarAndMo39, good morning I have maybe a couple hours to try to touch on some things, then I'll try to get back to it tonight after 9. I would like to start with a few thoughts on Mrs. Thompson, Jill's aunt, Of course I don't speak for the family and don't want to give any impression that I do, I've been lucky that she and her daughter have been so generous with their time and patience. Mrs. Thompson has been the linchpin for the whole search for the truth crusade from the very beginning, long before I ever got involved, and in many ways the spoke person for the family. She was present at all the trials, being Jill's mother's sister, she was her sister's ears and eyes during those trials, Jill's mother being a potential witness was not allowed in the court room during the proceedings. When anyone wanted or needed any info on the case, they turned to Mrs. Thompson, just as I did when I started my blog. When Deanna Storts was upset the the police didn't back to her, she contacted Mrs. Thompson, when Fred Dannen first came to Waco and wanted and inside scoop he was told to go to Mrs. Thompson and when Bernadette Feazell was looking for support for Anthony Melendez she also turned to Mrs. Thompson. And that's the thing Mrs. Thompson has always been there for everyone offering whatever assistance and/or information and knowledge she could provide, asking for nothing in return other than a few answers to some of her own questions and the truth, in the end all she has gotten is more questions than she started with, unfortunately I have to admit I have had a part in that. All she has ever wanted is the truth and she has been willing to listened to anybody and hear what they have to say, I don't know if I would consider that as she believes Spence and the Melendez brothers are innocent, she has questions, again I don't speak for her. I would point out now she was some question people she supported in the past won't her to her or answer some of her questions, that's beyond disgraceful and disrespectful, that includes the Arnett's, the Melendez Brothers' family, that she did so much for them when they were trying to get leniency for Anthony. And now they try to lie and say Gilbert never owned a truck, these are the kind of people we are dealing with. As I said some time ago I would like Mrs. Thompson to get on here and let people know all the family as been through, it would help people understand the true and total scope and depth of this tragedy, it would be so much better than coming from me, I can't even come close to giving it the just due it deserves. maybe sometime today I will contact Mrs. Thompson and see if I can get her to make at least one statement for us but I know she has now wished to take more of a backseat to things now, she has spent so much of her life, time and energies on this case, she has much better things to do with her time, I don't like to infringe on that, she deserves nothing less that my total admiration, gratitude and respect.

 

[BKL67]

How did I become interested in the case? Well like most people, well outside of Texas,, the first I heard about the murders was from the Careless Whispers book, I liked to read true crime novels back then. The story suck with me or I remembered it years later. Then in 1993 I was busy being a beach bum, well I'm not sure if you can call it busy being a beach bum, more like slacking living the easy life just hoping the party would never end. I had just started in the hospitality business, the perfect job for a slacker, in a summer resort town although it is packed all summer long in the hospitality business you usually are swamped for a few hours one one day, most tourist coming for a week, when they are checking out and new group of tourist are checking in for a week, the guest that are checking out want to check out late, when that's not possible they ask if they can at least keep their vehicle in the parking lot, finding parking in Ocean City in the summer is always a hassle and a very profitable enterprise to get into, and the guest that are checking in want to check-in early and again when that is impossible they also ask if they can use the already packed parking lot. So you have to go through that for a few hours and then the rest of the week is very easy and you have a lot of free time on your hands. It just happened that one of the owners of the establishment I worked for was a computer guy or in the computer business before in got into the hospitality business and during these times when things were slow it was always encouraging me to check out this new thing, the internet, he said it was going to be the wave of the future, it had just been launched at that time, I believe April 1993. Honestly at the time I didn't know anything about computers or the internet being busy with the more personal face to face interactions with the ever changing transient population. But I did start checking out the internet and that's when I came across the news on Muneer Deeb's release which had happened only a short time before, I remembered that name. My initial reaction was I can't believe they released that fool. More articles started appearing about the death penalty, the thoughts on what people took as a conspiracy and then the flood gates opened with the witnesses wanting to recant their testimony, if I remember correctly by the time Deeb was released only two of the jailbirds had recanted; Ray Snelson, he was the one that wrote the letter Juanita White received and I believe the other one was Jesse Ivy, the other inmate, along with Snelson, they were the two inmates from TDC, the other 5 jailbirds that testified were from the McLennan County lock up, so it looks like Snelson and Ivy just schemed this whole thing up, it is important to note neither one has ever tried to say they were given any kind of special treatment or incentives or feed any information or told what to say like others would later try to claim. Actually when Snelson was asked why he had lied on the stand he replied he did so because he believed David Spence was guilty. Then the Melendez brothers joined the party and wanted to recant and started crying they were railroaded and things stated getting crazy. Then the human rights groups started hailing Muneer Deeb as some kind of hero, I was thinking had these people totally lost their minds. Amnesty International paid for him to go to Europe to give a speech at their annual conference in Belgium or Switzerland or where ever they hold it, I lost all respect for that organization. Then in 1996 Brian Pardo came along and as I have stated before he was open and honest his was regularly giving the press updates, so that kept me informed on what was going on at that time. And then Bernadette Feazell and Fred Dannen got involved and things got crazier from there and the campaign of misinformation started. Finally it got to the point, the final straw came when Texas Monthly deleted my post and shut down their article to comments when I asked them about how they were expecting to find the truth when they were lying. I decided there needed to be a place where people could see things about the case they probably hadn't heard before because it definitely wasn't being reported and where people were free to express their own opinions regardless of their views on the case and discuss issues they wanted to discuss . I wasn't and still am note very computer savvy but I thought I would give it a try and that's how my blog came into being. GarAndMo39 there is one thing I would like to point out that I feel gets overlooked in regards to all the misleading information and straight out lies that have been put out there. I remember one site it was around the time I started my blog, another girl had started a page on the crimes, can't complain about that the more people keeping the case in the public eye the better. But she wrote something, and I would say it was probably just a mistake it is very easy to mix up the facts in this very complex and confusing case, names, events, whom said what or whom did what, honestly I still mix and mess things up, it will happen, what is important is to fix those mistakes once you become aware of them, something Texas Monthly refused to do. Anywhere this girl wrote that it was Lisa Kader that called Truman Simons late the night of July 13/14 to tell him Muneer Deeb confessed to her he had committed the murders well in fact it was Gayle Kelly made that call. Again it would seem to be a small mistake but when the facts get mixed up like that people don't get to hear the true story, in this case with Lisa Kader they don't hear what she actually did and said and don't get to see the significance. Lisa Kader was the one that put Spence in the mix, David's parole officer had tried to inform Salinas about Spence but Salinas wasn't listening. And it was their conversation with Lisa that led Simons and Baier to talk to the parole officer; Gene Deal. Without that interview with Lisa Kader it's doubtful any of that happened, Waco PD had given up on the case, as evidenced by not following up on the tips that were still coming in to the Crime Stoppers Hotline after they suspended the case even though it clearly states in the report that notes the case being suspended that they would follow up any new information, not only do we have the call from Josie Scionti in December that Waco PD failed to do anything with we also have the early September call to the hotline from Doris Tucker that they also failed to follow up. Waco Pd just wasn't going to do anything more with this case unless they were pushed into it as they were when Vic Feazell first got elected D.A. in November. I don't like giving law enforcement a hard time but clearly Waco PD failed in this case.

So GarAndMo39 that is how I got involved in the case, probably to much information on me or about me and not info on the case itself, sorry about that. I will try to get back later tonight. have a great day, PEACE.

 

[BKL67]

@ GarAndMo39, you asked me, " can you list the evidence that has persuaded you of the guilt of Spence, the Melendez brothers, & Deeb?", you know it's not that easy. That is the thing with looking at a case or trials in hindsight, researching a case or whatever, you see many things that were never mentioned in open court; either the defense was able to get damaging evidence or testimony suppressed, which is their job to do or the prosecution didn't use some information because it didn't fit their narrative and they found no use for it, of course we clearly this this in this case. Then we have the personalities involved, earlier you mentioned your thoughts or feelings about Vic Feazell, cocky, arrogant, egoistical, however you would like to word it. You do see so how his personality in how he presented his case or the evidence and actually it changed a little from David Spence's first trial 1984 to Muneer Deeb's first trial in 1985. Maybe in the first trial he was full of himself and he had this was in his delivery that he never quite hammered home the final nail that would have definitely left no doubt, he would clearly be implicating his point and leading the jury in that direction but then without driving home that final nail leaving it for the jury to decide, which I guess it is how it is suppose to be in the end. But leaves wiggle room, a lot of wiggle room and some people can make a lot of hay out of that, which of course is what happened later in this case and why I am mentioning it. Vic Feazell must have realized as well by the time it got around to Deeb's first trial and you can see he wants to be sure he closes the door of doubt but now he goes overboard and this is what allowed Deeb to be granted a re-trial. As you will read in Deeb's appeals Vic didn't need to call Jordan to the stand, whose testimony was the grounds for the re-trial. Vic had produced a witness and had a corroborating witness, he had met the requirements for introducing circumstantial evidence he didn't need a third witness. In his own words Vic Feazell would say he just didn't feel comfortable wasn't sure if it was enough with just the two witnesses so he decided to bring in the third witness which was Jordan and ended up being a huge mistake. Again I bring this up because of the issues some people tried to make of this later and I believe it is also very telling, there are two instances I'm going to get into.

First, there were a group of young guys, four of them to be exact, that had started drinking at Midway Park in the late evening or early night hours of July 13th, after some time had passed they decided to go for a ride, so they all jumped into the truck of one of the guys and drove over to Konhe Park. Two of these guys would testify during David Spence's first trial; one being Clifford Oliver, he was the owner of the car Mr. Franks found abandoned and vandalized at Midway Park on the morning of July 14th. The other guy to testify was 17 year old Todd Childers, it was his truck the guys went riding around in. To put things in proper context Clifford Oliver had also testified for the Grand Jury, his claim that David Spence told him that he had been out at the lake with Tony, who Mr. Oliver knew to be Anthony Melendez , when Oliver and friends stopped by Spence's around 2:00 a.m. on July 14th was the sole piece of information presented to the Grand Jury that connected Anthony Melendez to David Spence the night of July 13th and the murders. During Spence's first trial Todd Childers would corroborate this testifying he also heard Spence say this when they arrived at his place that night. Now the two guys were testifying to their activities on the night of July 13/14 including their trip to Kohne Park, which Clifford Oliver had forgot to mention, along with his next morning visit to the park with Spence, to Lt. Horton when he was interviewed by him on July 15th or 16th, only a few days after the murders or when he was interviewed by Truman Simons and the McLennan County Sheriff's office in December 1982. Even now during their testimony the guys had troubling detailing what they did that night and their timelines didn't quite match, it looked liked they were trying to find a way to account for their time. But they agree they first went to Koehne Park after they left Midway Park and they both state when they got there they ran into two guys that they traded beer for weed from. Further questioning from Vic Feazell led to more details as to whom these two guys that gave them the weed were, being told they were Mexican and they were in a white truck, remind you neither of the Melendez brothers would testify in this first trial, but it is crystal clear that Vic Feazell implicating that the two Mexicans in the white truck were the Melendez brothers, Vic so self assured leaves it at that, surely the jury understands, anybody that knew anything about the case would know what he was implying. Why didn't he nail it close it would have been simple to do, just straight out ask if it was the Melendez brothers they saw, or even present them photos of the Melendez brothers and ask Clifford and Todd with they were the two guys they met in Koehne Park that night, that would have definitely and indisputably decided the matter. But Feazell didn't do this his was so sure he had got his point across to the jury, which I believe he did and the final verdict from the jury would support that but it did leave a little crack open for doubt that others would try exploit later pointing to the fact the two witnesses never said it was the Melendez brothers which is true. There was another way Vic Feazell could had handled this issue that would have left no doubt. As I stated earlier there were four guys that went along on this summer night joy ride, one of the other guys was 17 year old John Arnett Jr. and he was the younger half brother of Anthony and Gilbert Melendez but John Arnett Jr never testified, actually you barely even here his name during the whole trial, Todd mentions Arnett was a friend of his and he was with them that night and Clifford also states Arnett was with them that night and that is it, so his name is pretty much just brought up in passing. To better exhibit this I should share I didn't realize John Arnett Jr. was related to the Melendez brothers until a few years ago. As I usually do on my blog I was discussing Clifford Oliver and kept mentioning the guys that were with him and at aome point with David Spence the night of the murders. Jill Montgomery's aunt, keep in mind this was a lady that sat through all the trials everyday, asked me why I kept mentioning John Arnett Jr., I explained about him being with Oliver and Spence and she replied she didn't realize that and then I asked her why she was asking and that's when she informed me who Arnett was. So if someone that was engaged and as close to the case as Jill Montgomery's aunt missed that detail think how what seemed like a small insignificant fact slipped pass the jury. The absence of John Arnett Jr from any of the court proceedings is very telling. GarAndMo39, I'm only getting started on this so to be continued.....

 

[BKL67]

Moving on to my second example where Vic Feazell didn't quite nail it down beyond a reasonable doubt, which he could have if he had asked one or two more questions to one witness. And this would be an issue that some still question today. As usual the fact benders and falsehood creators went wild with this one but as they usually do they only tell part of the story, disregarding other essential facts, evidence and testimony. If you are familiar with the Lake Waco Murders you have probably heard that it was impossible that the killers used Gilbert's white truck because it was on blocks with four flat tires at the time, I recommend that all the testimony on the matter should be read. It comes down to a cook out and grill master, defense witness and part time mechanic Calvin Nesbit. Mr. Nesbit would testify, for the defense, that Gilbert's white truck was in his yard for about two months and then Gilbert's stepfather came and picked up the truck. He went on to state that Gilbert brought the truck to his place in early June and sit sat there until about the middle or late July, he wasn't sure of the dates, what he did remember was the truck was there sitting in his yard when Mr. Nesbit was having a cook out, he says it was the forth of July because he has a cook out every July 4th and it was shortly after this that Mr. Arnett came and got the truck. Ok that seems pretty straight forward and cut and dry but then the prosecution went to work. They were able to get Mr. Nesbit to admit the tires were in good shape when Gilbert first brought the truck over, they didn't go flat until after the truck had sat there awhile, Mr. Nesbit again stating it sat there for about two months, the prosecution wanting to make sure he was clear on his timeline asked him again about when the truck there and Nesbit answered has he had done before; through the month of June into the middle or late July and again pointing to the cook out he said was of the forth of July and Mr. Arnett picked up the truck after that event. The prosecution called to the stand the couple that sold Gilbert Melendez the truck, of course not at the same time one after the other, and with them they had the crucial document, entered into evidence, the notarized title transfer from Mr. Sulak. the gentleman that sold the truck to Gilbert and now state witness, the date of sale on that all important document July 3, 1982. Mr. and Mrs. Sulak both testified to the events of that day so there could be no question as to when the sale took place nor when the document was notarized, it all happened on that one day July 3rd. The Sulaks would also testify the truck was in good running order when they sold the truck to Gilbert including the tires. Mrs. Sulak would remember seeing the truck weeks later, looking in a lot worse condition than it was when they sold it to Gilbert, sitting in a yard, this being Mr. Nesbit's place. Again no one needs to be a math genius to understand that if Gilbert didn't get the truck until July 3rd and it was in running order he could not have taking it to Nesbit's in early June as Mr. Nesbit claimed. Vic Feazell would continue, still working along the lines of Mr. Nesbit's time frame of how long Gilbert's truck sat in his yard; about two months. Then Vic Feazell asks Mr. Nesbit didn't Mr. Arnett, Gilbert's stepfather, come and retrieve the truck after Gilbert was arrested, also asking Nesbit if he asked for anyone to come get the truck out of his yard Mr. Nesbit said he didn't, this of course leading to the unanswered and unasked question why did Gilbert's family feel the need to come get the truck so fast after Gilbert was arrested when it had sat there for about two months ?, Mr. Nesbit agreed it was after Gilbert was arrested. Vic then pointed out that David Spence and Gilbert Melendez had sexually assaulted the boy over the Labor Day weekend and were arrested a few days later and it was after this that Mr. Arnett came and got the truck, all Mr. Nesbit could say was yes and that was the end of that. Now anyone with a level mind or a fair and open mind can see the conclusion Vic Feazell is making, if Mr. Arnett picked up the truck in early September, going back about two months from there, the time Mr. Nesbit claims the truck was in his yard, that would put the time Gilbert took his truck to Mr. Nesbit's around late July and after the murders occurred. But with people like Bernadette Feazell and Fred Dannen around you still have to contend with the fact that Mr. Nesbit says the truck was there when he had his cook out on July 4th, clearly he is mistaken, is he trying to be deceitful or does he just have events mixed up. And this is where Vic Feazell could have nailed things shut and leaving no doubt but that just wasn't his style during this trial, all he had to do was ask Mr. Nesbit, seeing he claimed he always had a cook out on forth of July was to ask him the simple question did he also have cook outs for Labor Day and then maybe ask him if he was mixing up those cook outs as to when Gilbert's truck was there, which looks like the case because Mr. Nesbit agrees Mr. Arnett retrieved the truck after Gilbert was arrested after Labor Day. GarAndMo39 it things like this that I believe help prove Spence and the Melendez brothers were guilty, the defense was drawing for straws just hoping that they could find something because they didn't have anything, no witnesses no alibis and no evidence and other lawyers see how a case is going, that's why the Melendez brothers's attorneys wanted to make deals, they knew the way things were going and when Spence went down the Melendez brothers were going to suffer the same fate, the best the brothers could do was make whatever deal they could make to save their lives, including Gilbert that had already been offered immunity when he was cooperating in the Spring of '83, only to have it taken away because he kept lying, he should have felt lucky Vic Feazell was willing to give him a second chance. The defense was getting crushed in David's trial it looked like Russ Hunt was getting beat over the head with a law book in open court and all the lawyers knew it. And there is plenty more, not really a list more like Brian's rambling rant on the realities of the guilt of the famous four.

 

[BKL67]

And now another very controversial issue with the case; the testimony of the 7 jailbirds and the later development that 5 would try and recant their testimony. Using jailhouse snitches is always a bad idea, everyone knows they are so unreliable, that's why most states very strict guidelines when it comes to allowing such testimony to presented in court. At the time Texas had a very nonchalant policy towards this kind of testimony and it was allowed, Governor Abbott just within the last few years has tightened up that policy. I believe there is a common misperception out there that there were only seven inmates that came forward and claimed David Spence talked to them about the murders, this is incorrect there were about twenty maybe two dozen, only seven were chosen to testify. All this can be found in the rulings of one of the Appellate Courts that heard David Spence's appeals. In their decision the court explains why they really won't even consider the recantations of the jailbirds and why this doesn't constituted a reversible error. They caution using jailbird testimony, referencing the well held belief among the legal world of the unreliability I mentioned earlier and getting into why the court had not erred although later said jailbirds in this case admitted they lied, stating the prosecution had done their due diligence which is all that is required from them, witnesses lie not only jailbirds, did the state make any effort to filter those lies, in this case they had, they went through all the statements from all the jailbirds and discarded the ones they felt there were issues with, the prosecution had clearly made an effort to remove any misleading or untruthful statements in doing so no error had been committed. Not to say they missed some faulty statements but you can't hold someone responsible for failing to detect a lie that is unreasonable.

I as well as most people I believe are not happy with the use of jailbird testimony, especially in this case. What most people are unaware of is in the beginning Vic Feazell was against it as well. In the infamous types so much has been made about, mostly by Bernadette Feazell, these being the tapes made while Vic Feazell was working the case, pretty much his mental notes and thoughts on the case, Vic is questioning the techniques and methods being used by Truman Simons including his reliance on information he was getting from inmates, Vic remarks he can't use this in court he doesn't like it. So the question becomes what made him change his mind? And the answer is quite simple. When Vic Feazell first took office in January 1983 he immediately decided the D.A.'s office was going to take over the investigation of the Lake Waco Murders and put his own team of investigators together. By the middle of that Spring, after Gilbert Melendez had stopped cooperating, Salinas and Baier had prepared Christine Juhl's massive statement and Naval Intelligence had interviewed Clifford Oliver and forwarded their report to the D.A.'s office nothing more came in, no new information, no new leads, the team was stuck with what they had and Vic Feazell had to make a decision either he had to put the case on the shelf hoping something might come in later like the Waco PD had done or he could proceed with what he had, he chose the latter. In doing so he reviewed the statements Truman Simons had gotten inmates to write up under his supervision earlier in the year. Vic decided now to have those same inmates come in and write new statements, this was in September 1993 and going through those statements he now was willing to use them and decided to go to the Grand Jury that was called to session in November. We might not like his decision to go this route but we can understand it.

One thing most people can't understand is why would David Wayne Spence run his mouth like this. The defense never tried to argue that David didn't talk about the murders to other inmates while he was in jail, actually the defense tried to use these conversations as grounds for appeal, trying to claim David's constitutional right to a speedy trial was violated because the state wanted to keep in the McLennan County jail because he was talking about the Lake Waco murders and in doing so held up his trial for his Aggravated Sexual Assault charge so he wouldn't be send off to TDC.. Yes as crazy as it sounds the defense was admitting David was talking to his fellow inmates about the murders, some of which were now going to testify against him. There is nothing quite like it when the defense helps the prosecution make their case. Welcome to the Lake Waco Murders case.

 

[BKL67]

GarAndMo39, earlier you stated that Dr. Jolliff diagnosed Spence as a sociopath, that is not quite accurate. What both doctors that had diagnosed David said, their diagnoses being in concert with one another, and going into some depth, explained the terms psychopath and sociopath are not terms they would generally use, the terminology they would most likely use would be personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder. On the spectrum of antisocial personalities a psychopath would be at the far end, being the worst of he worst, making the clear distinction between psychopath and sociopath, a psychopath not having a conscience and not caring, a sociopath has a conscience and might care or want to care but it doesn't or can't stop their antisocial behavior, Both doctors said David was the worst of the worst or at the far end of the scale, lacking a conscience, which would be a psychopath.. Understanding the depths of David's unconscionable cruelty is essential to understanding some of his other behavior, David didn't care, he liked to hurt people, he liked to have control that feeling of domination over others and he didn't like to lose that control or be put in a position where his dominance would be put in jeopardy only allowing himself to be seen in this light if he could personally gain from it. which then people would take as David being capable of caring and showing real human emotion, it was all for show.

One of the darkest chapters of this whole tragedy, only surpassed by the murders and what the living victims have been left to deal with, is the hell Christine Juhl went through when she lived with David Spence. A dismal abyss of abuse, physical, mental and sexual. Many occurances well known by people that stayed and hung out at the house that witnessed these events sometimes finding these terrible actions humorous, which is troubling in itself. We have the re-occurring mental and physical abuse when David would bring girls home he wanted to have sex with, Christine being outraged and protest David would either tie her to a table or drag her outside and tie her to a tree in the backyard, many people witnessed this on multiple occasions, including the Melendez that would later explain this as David just being David. And Clifford Oliver saying hey David and Christine just fought a lot. Really what were these people thinking. Then we have the usual beatings that most people knew about because of the bruises, black eyes and busted lips Christine usually had, Muneer Deeb and Karim Qasem knew about it and talked to Christine about it and wanted her to get away from David that's why they helped her get the little apartment behind the store but David was able to work his way back into Christine's life, probably using the recent death of his beloved dog to muster up fake human emotion to gain Christine's sympathy. Even David's mother, Juanita White, was aware of the terrible physical David was afflicting upon Christine and when Juanita White returned she told David she would not tolerate it. David couldn't give up that feeling of control and domination, he had to find new ways to prove his dominance over Christine that couldn't be detected by others and that's when his infamous love stick came into being and even more deprived abuse of Christine Juhl, she knew all about the vicious biting long before David would leave his indelible marks on other girls. Then we have maybe the most infamous event, the one that finally even convinced the Menendez brothers they had to get out of there, which would lead to a very interesting point Anthony Melendez makes during his testimony that get overlooked. One night in the house of horrors on 15th Street, the usual crew was sitting around drinking beers, probably accompanied with whatever drugs they could get their hands on, when the conversation turns to David's domination over Christine and doing his best Charles Manson impression tells the Melendez brothers he can make Christine sleep with whomever he tells her to sleep with. Hatchet in hand he tells Anthony to go to bed with Christine, everybody tells David to stop kidding around but David is insistent and threatens to use the hatchet on Christine unless they comply to this demands, to calm him down Christine, Anthony, Gilbert and David make their way to the bedroom , then David commands Christine to undress and get in bed, again they comply but now that David has proved how dominate he is he is now mad that Anthony and Christine are in bed together so he goes after them with the hatched, Gilbert jumps in tackling David giving Anthony and Christine time to climb out the window, Gilbert would join them running down the street. David jumps into the truck he had at the time, hatched still in hand and catches the trio only a few blocks away. Somehow, which to this day I still can't understand, even after having many conversations with Christine about this event, David is able to get Christine to return home with him, the Melendez brothers decide they are never going back which apparently they never did. Even after David has convinced Christine to return home with him he's still not finished with his abuse and cruelty for the night, for now he ties Christine to the back of the truck and drags her down the road to the house. With this Christine can't take anymore and refuses to go inside with David and tells him she wants to leave, this sets David off and he takes the hatchet to the truck, killing it instead of Christine, Christine was able to get away and get in touch with her family where she stayed the night, only to be returned the next day to David's by her parents and being told she made her bed now she had to live in it. This is just a terrible sanario all around, so sad and tragic, unexplainable and impossible to understand. But this is to understand the real evil that was David Wayne Spence and see the key as to why he would talk like he did once he was locked up. I know I didn't get very far on this but I need a break.

 

[GarAndMo39]

GarAndMo39, earlier you stated that Dr. Jolliff diagnosed Spence as a sociopath, that is not quite accurate. What both doctors that had diagnosed David said, their diagnoses being in concert with one another, and going into some depth, explained the terms psychopath and sociopath are not terms they would generally use, the terminology they would most likely use would be personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder. On the spectrum of antisocial personalities a psychopath would be at the far end, being the worst of he worst, making the clear distinction between psychopath and sociopath, a psychopath not having a conscience and not caring, a sociopath has a conscience and might care or want to care but it doesn't or can't stop their antisocial behavior, Both doctors said David was the worst of the worst or at the far end of the scale, lacking a conscience, which would be a psychopath.. Understanding the depths of David's unconscionable cruelty is essential to understanding some of his other behavior, David didn't care, he liked to hurt people, he liked to have control that feeling of domination over others and he didn't like to lose that control or be put in a position where his dominance would be put in jeopardy only allowing himself to be seen in this light if he could personally gain from it. which then people would take as David being capable of caring and showing real human emotion, it was all for show.

Hi @BKL67 ! I apologize for using the first diagnosis that came to mind in my post referencing Dr. Jolliff. I appreciate your clarification; just for the record, I have a DSM-IV, Merck's Manual, a PDR, and lots of other medical reference books. The antisocial personality disorder is kind of confusing at present- initially, they called folks with this disorder sociopaths (after many years of using psychopath). In recent years, the term psychopath has begun being used again. I guess I instinctively use "sociopath" because I was used to that term for years. I definitely get what you're saying about Spence- I know Dr. Jolliff did say he was the worst of the worst! I'm glad you pointed this out, as I need to brush up on current terminology! It also illustrates well the behaviors Spence exhibited with Christine. I do remember reading about the hatchet incident just the other night. Spence is one scary, evil monster- no question.
I'll get back to you in re: the evidence (I hope to read through the trials in Stowers' book today/tonight...in all honesty, since Butler is his friend & encouraged him to write the book, I have no idea how I'll react to the way they are presented (I wish I had a transcript, dammit), but it will at least give me a decent starting point!
Also, I appreciate your telling me about Jan Thompson. I have a wonderful impression of her from your blog. I'd love to see her post, but I certainly don't want her to go through any more stress and trauma than she already has, bless her heart.
More later after I read your posts more carefully, and check out the book...
See you then!

 

[BKL67]

I don't think anyone can honestly debate that David Spence talked about the Lake Waco Murders while he was locked up, as I stated in an earlier post even his attorney's conceded that point but I guess what he actually said could be debated, other than the fact that he asked a fellow inmate to draw a blonde hair girl, a dark haired, a weapon and either the word Chili, his nickname. or killer om a bandanna that David wore around the jail. I think anyone would consider this behavior bizarre, why draw attention to yourself when you already know you are the prime suspect in the triple homicide case, again you have to look at David's personality, All psychopaths or sociopaths aren't brutal killers or even vicious criminals, actually it is a small percentage of those diagnosed with these personalities disorders that commit serious crimes, though it sounds strange the reasoning usually applied to this is that the most important thing to these individuals is their own happiness committing crimes risk them getting caught and jeopardizing their happiness so they find other outlets to feed their anti-social behaviors. So the combination of criminal behavior, the pleasure of inflicting pain on others and being as violent as he was makes David Wayne Spence a very rare and extremely dangerous mixture. Not only was he an experienced criminal he understood the criminal society, this is important when trying understand why he acted like he did once he was locked up.


On Sunday September 5, 1982 David Spence and Gilbert Melendez sexually assaulted an eighteen year old boy, the victim had just recently turned eighteen, if I remember correctly just two days before. This boy's family had gone away for the Labor Day weekend and he had some friends over to hang out and drink beer and whatever, during the day the victim and a couple of his friends ran into David Spence, Gilbert Melendez and Robert Coleman, an individual that was regularly around when David committed his violent acts and the victim knew him, Coleman being nineteen at the time and a bit younger than Spence, 24, and Gilbert, 28. They all return to the victims house, were some kind of altercation breaks out, the victim wants his rowdy guests to leave, Coleman does so, David and Gilbert refuse to and this is when take a turn for the worse. David Spence pulls a knife on the boy and cuts his leg and forces him to perform oral sex on Gilbert Melendez. The next day the boy's family return home to find in unsatisfactory condition, he tells them what happened and they call the police. Spence and Gilbert are arrested a few days later, David being picked up on Thursday September 9th. By October a deal has been worked out with the D.A.'s office where it is agreed upon David and Gilbert will plead guilty to aggravated sexual assault and in return will receive seven year sentences. This actually is even a better deal for Spence because he had violated his parole and the time he didn't serve on that charge, that being the hatchet robbery of the 7-11 in Fort Worth, was still hanging over his head but with this deal the two sentences would run concurrent; at the same time. Finally when it comes to signing on the dotted line officially sealing the agreed upon deal Gilbert Melendez signs and is sent off to TDC. David Spence balks, he wants another condition placed on the deal, he doesn't believe he should be charged with sexual assault, he just cut the boy he didn't commit any sexual act with the boy, only Gilbert had. See David Wayne Spence understood the criminal society that existed in the prison system and he knew in that criminal hierarchy sexually assaulting a teenage boy did not rank very highly, actually it ranked very low and was looked down upon, doing a stint on that charge was going to be a rough ride. On the other hand in this world of upside down morals killing three kids and with a knife, close and personal, and raping two teenage age girl, ranked up there pretty high, maybe not the acts themselves but others that lived in this society would know and/or think this guy is totally crazy and unpredictable and would be less adept to mess with him, allowing David to keep some semblance of control his personality so craved. David also knew, even though prisons are restricted and isolated societies news and rumors make their way there just as fast if not faster than the outside world and David knew he had to have his reputation as a crazy killer and rapist rather than that of a guy that liked to sexual assault boys established in the prison system before he arrived and what better way than use his fellow inmates in county lock up and on their way to prison as messengers and to do that he needed to boast of his brutal and sadistic ways and advertise it, wearing the bandanna, showing he wasn't afraid of anything and was in control.

I know this will sound so unbelievable to most people, well those not on the far end of the personality disorder spectrum but this was David Wayne Spence. We see the escalation of erratic and violent behavior in Spence, Christine Juhl saw it, she noticed he was becoming more violent, she would leave David about a week after the murders because of this and remember this was a girl that had been regularly beat, tied up, sexually abused and tied up and dragged behind a truck before. We even start to see a pattern of frequency in David's violent behavior; July 13th the murders, July 27th the attack on Cindy Quick/Click, August 10th the rape of Lisa Kader and September 5th the sexual assault on the Pack boy, I know if this is the case we are missing one which would have occurred around August 24th and that's a scary thought but maybe that victim didn't want to come forward just as Cindy and Lisa didn't want to, they didn't want to report it or press charges they just wanted to forget about it. It was only David's other violent acts that got them drawn into it.

GarAndMo39, the other day I asked what would have more impact on a jury three victims of David Spence's violence or scientific debate and your reply is correct it would be up to the individual jury to decide and every one has the right to their own opinion, no one is right or wrong. For me I believe the testimony of the three girls would have been way more impactful and I do believe their accounts and each one does have some degree of corroborating testimony or evidence. With Christine Juhl both Muneer Deeb and Karim Qasem testified they saw the bruises, black eyes and busted lips she came to work with and not only did they talk to Christine about it they talked to David about it telling him he shouldn't be treating her like that. With Cindy Quick/Click Gilbert Melendez was there, and I would add Cindy and Gilbert were witnesses to the exchange between David and Gayle Kelly earlier that same day when he asked her if she would like to live to see eighteen. David and Gilbert were talking turns with Cindy when David decided to go off and attack Cindy, Gilbert had to jump in to stop him just as he had done with the hatchet incident. And just another layer Cindy's old man was a biker David knew and he was actually in the McLennan County jail when David arrived, he and David had a conversation about this event and it was this biker, I believe his name was Jerry Jennings, that told law enforcement about the incident because Cindy had never reported it. And finally the bite marks were still visible on Lisa Kader when she was interviewed on September 11th, a full month after the incident, by Truman Simons and Dennis Baier and she showed the marks to them when they asked to see them. GarAndMo39, I know all this is circumstantial as is the most of the evidence and/or testimony against the four but how could anyone sit there and listen to all this and not start to see David Wayne Spence for what he was? He liked to inflict pain on others he did that for pure pleasure and if he could gain something else for doing so, like money, it was just a bonus. That would help him pay for his growing alcohol and drug addiction because at times even David Wayne Spence couldn't escape his mind and darkness.