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University of Idaho Murders: State of Idaho vs. BK *GUILTY PLEA* (2 Viewers)

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Got my Masters degree from here. :(

Killer who stabbed 4 Idaho students to death still at large​

The killer — or killers — who stabbed four University of Idaho students to death remained at large Tuesday, prompting many students to leave the campus in the idyllic small town despite police assurances that there was no imminent risk to the community.

So many students had left the scenic tree-lined campus in Moscow, Idaho, by Tuesday that university officials said a candlelight vigil scheduled for the next day would instead be held after the Thanksgiving break.

The students, all close friends, were found dead in an off-campus rental home around noon on Sunday, and officials said they likely were killed several hours earlier. Latah County Coroner Cathy Mabbutt told the Spokane, Washington-based television station KXLY that her preliminary investigation showed the students were stabbed to death. There is no indication that substance use was involved in the deaths, Mabbutt said.
 
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I’m so behind in this case. I did catch the part two last night though.

I’m very much behind on the conversation between the other two roommates and will try to catch up on that later.
 
I saw something today as one would expect from Kaylee's father where he is stating they weren't told this would be hitting the news. Not surprised about that, it plays into families not being informed or knowing how to access open filings, etc. He also stood up for the roommates. I forget what I saw it on but think it was a news or TV station.

Scott Reich is a good one also to watch for recaps and to stay up on Kohberger, Read, Daybell and a few others with unbiased legal looks and some wry humor. Imo.

The Docket got a lot of it/paid for it and Court TV even had to admit they got their info from The Docket. I like him, but his shows can be so very long. However, he does a lot of FOIA and he (with a few others at times) pays for documents or court recordings.

In our case, I had worked for attys many years back and also knew our system online has pretty good public access. One used to be able to see more than today, but it's still better than many states. I'd check it and see sometihing had been filed we didn't know about but I didn't live near any longer and one couldn't access the full documents without going to the Courthouse. I sent a sibling and told her to go to the Clerk's office, that all public could get these things. She was willing, able, and found the time and she went and got us every document that was ever filed, usually the minute I'd see something was. The first time, I talked to the detective who I was in about weekly contact with throughout and started asking him things that were in a filing and he was like how do you have that, know that, as they'd just gotten it or been that day, day before or something. I told him I was aware any member of the public can get these things and so my family was doing such as we hadn't heard from them yet about it.

I say this here for others to know if ever in this situation. I have nothing bad to say about this detective, our prosecutor, etc. It's just that we also need them doing what matters and their job as much as holding our hands and getting something to us within an hour. We are upset, grieving, don't know how things work (families of victims) and don't live cases like they do, or the legal system. Our family cared and probably 1/2 drove them nuts lol, not really, but they learned they had a family, a big one, that was going to want to know every last thing they could and were serious about justice. They did great and kept us informed but even then I've talked of how they don't know necessarily just every little thing a family is going to wonder or need to know either and they have a bigger job to do as well.

I understand to a point Kaylee's dad, Dylan Rounds' mom, etc. They get knocked as they might be interfering or it can be looked at that way, but they are grieving and want answers and aren't going to stand down.

Anyhow back to the point, most here know it, but for anyone ever reading, in our case, they still make it pretty archaic where one has to travel to the courthouse to view or get copies of the docs and if you don't live there, it's harder. Filing may show online but to get a copy, one may have to do that or do snail mail even. Some states may differ and perhaps news at least and some can get such quickly via email, online, etc. Our state has an efile system now but that's only for the attorneys in the case, etc. to file and access.

I guess if I have any other point it is that in this quick age where people can have it and be talking of it before the family has heard of such, the P team and detectives and LE need to be even faster at informing the families before others know.

Or sadly, the families who have lives, jobs and are in full grief, need to be checking as much as they should have someone informing them and staying on top of it.
 
I saw something today as one would expect from Kaylee's father where he is stating they weren't told this would be hitting the news. Not surprised about that, it plays into families not being informed or knowing how to access open filings, etc. He also stood up for the roommates. I forget what I saw it on but think it was a news or TV station.

Scott Reich is a good one also to watch for recaps and to stay up on Kohberger, Read, Daybell and a few others with unbiased legal looks and some wry humor. Imo.

The Docket got a lot of it/paid for it and Court TV even had to admit they got their info from The Docket. I like him, but his shows can be so very long. However, he does a lot of FOIA and he (with a few others at times) pays for documents or court recordings.

In our case, I had worked for attys many years back and also knew our system online has pretty good public access. One used to be able to see more than today, but it's still better than many states. I'd check it and see sometihing had been filed we didn't know about but I didn't live near any longer and one couldn't access the full documents without going to the Courthouse. I sent a sibling and told her to go to the Clerk's office, that all public could get these things. She was willing, able, and found the time and she went and got us every document that was ever filed, usually the minute I'd see something was. The first time, I talked to the detective who I was in about weekly contact with throughout and started asking him things that were in a filing and he was like how do you have that, know that, as they'd just gotten it or been that day, day before or something. I told him I was aware any member of the public can get these things and so my family was doing such as we hadn't heard from them yet about it.

I say this here for others to know if ever in this situation. I have nothing bad to say about this detective, our prosecutor, etc. It's just that we also need them doing what matters and their job as much as holding our hands and getting something to us within an hour. We are upset, grieving, don't know how things work (families of victims) and don't live cases like they do, or the legal system. Our family cared and probably 1/2 drove them nuts lol, not really, but they learned they had a family, a big one, that was going to want to know every last thing they could and were serious about justice. They did great and kept us informed but even then I've talked of how they don't know necessarily just every little thing a family is going to wonder or need to know either and they have a bigger job to do as well.

I understand to a point Kaylee's dad, Dylan Rounds' mom, etc. They get knocked as they might be interfering or it can be looked at that way, but they are grieving and want answers and aren't going to stand down.

Anyhow back to the point, most here know it, but for anyone ever reading, in our case, they still make it pretty archaic where one has to travel to the courthouse to view or get copies of the docs and if you don't live there, it's harder. Filing may show online but to get a copy, one may have to do that or do snail mail even. Some states may differ and perhaps news at least and some can get such quickly via email, online, etc. Our state has an efile system now but that's only for the attorneys in the case, etc. to file and access.

I guess if I have any other point it is that in this quick age where people can have it and be talking of it before the family has heard of such, the P team and detectives and LE need to be even faster at informing the families before others know.

Or sadly, the families who have lives, jobs and are in full grief, need to be checking as much as they should have someone informing them and staying on top of it.
Well it is strange that someone like myself from a different country can find a document but a relative cannot. They should, though, definitely have a victim's advocate or liaison provided by LE who can help them.
 
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Well it is strange that someone like myself from a different country can find a document but a relative cannot. They should, though, defiinitely have a victim's advocate or liaison provided by LE who can help them.
They have an attorney I believe don't they? They likely or the attorney could have found it just as you did but what they were saying was that they weren't told of it ahead of time.

I remember in Stauch, I believe it was, there was actually too someone at JT who got a doc or info ahead of the family and public (with an inside source or paying I'm sure) and he blasted it on JT/WS and trouble resulted. He got in trouble or seemed to and JT should have been and damage control kicked in fast.

But yes, once filed and if available publicly because of it, the family or their atty should be able to get such too. In this case, it's just that he wasn't aware before it hit. I'm more talking of how the DA and P and LE need to be ahead as much as they can keeping the families informed. And how it isn't the main part of their job or what they consider most important at times, they have their jobs to do. Families also need more imo than a victim advocate. I talked to a deputy for months right up until he was arrested and charged and then that deputy informed me that's when it would be handed off to the vic advocate and I'd not have contact with him any longer and I should call her. That's how our system works anyhow, here. She was very nice but it isn't the same. And I had to go looking to talk to the detective in the first place. And I first contacted the sheriff who put me to the deputy, who I can't complain about at all. Man that guy was smart. However, hurting families shouldn't have a to go looking for contact and most want or need to hear from someone if not daily, weekly, and ideally they should know when something is filed before the public and internet does OR at least they should be apprised not to panic when they see a bunch of defense filings etc. for instance. I can't put it all into words right now very well.

It just needs to change a bit I guess is what I'd say. I believe in open and public records big time but in this fast age, the family if possible should still get a head's up. And they can't do it all, they are reeling. And yes, their atty should have been on the ball but being on the ball might be just hours and I'm sure it isn't their only job/client.

I'm probably making no sense but am trying. I guess as I said I checked constantly like for filings in ours online and then I'd send my sister to go get copies of anything filed before sometimes the P or detectives even had been able to look at such themselves probably. I knew one could do that, many don't. My sister worked for attys most of her lifetime but they were big time corporate attys and she knew nothing about our home state or the criminal process. I knew a little from working for attorneys in my 20s (a long, long, long time ago) and two of them did criminal law and yet I don't think I ever saw a murder in our area with them lol, we just didn't have much. But I knew how you get records in our state and that they were all publicly accessible and this was long before the filings would show online.

Sorry. Let me try to gather my thoughts and make more sense. I guess what I mean is the families shouldn't have to figure out how to do all this on top of the grief, loss, and there's a need and a gap. My family has an entire book of all filed, etc. and once my sister knew from me one could get these things, she was on it all of the time. I couldn't have done it for a couple of reasons but I knew one could and told her and she was able to and she did so above and beyond.

I guess in a nutshell is that victim families NEED someone explaining, doing and keeping them informed but LE and detectives and DA's NEED to be doing their jobs and shouldn't need to babysit either as part of them when we really do want them on the main thing of justice and charging and trying, etc.

I'm well aware this wanders and probably isn't very put together. I'm just meaning there's a gap and a need. I was very happy with our detectives and the prosecutor and yet I saw such clearly at times. Victim advocates are to fill that void but they don't have the same access and that's another story.

I don't think I answered very well...

SOMEONE should be on this for the families. It certainly isn't the judge's job either BUT victim families and victims really do get the shaft and there are needs that should be filled.

And yes, their attorney should have been on it too. I'm almost positive the Gonzales have an attorney and most families can't do that either. I asked early on if our family should find someone to like take care of things for us, I was told no...

And I don't know how it's going for them and there are FOUR different families but again I can't complain as to ONCE in touch (and we had to do that), who I talked to was very good and he was stuck with at least an hour a week with me for months, answering every various question I or my family has.

ANDDDD I am wandering... They just should have known before the public. Even if a split second.

Early morning. Hope all excuse the long wandering post. Just a big believer in a lot of things in the system need some fixing and they need to realize too things are rapid fire as to information but the system and people in it are busy or sometimes very slow as is the legal process....
 
They have an attorney I believe don't they? They likely or the attorney could have found it just as you did but what they were saying was that they weren't told of it ahead of time.

I remember in Stauch, I believe it was, there was actually too someone at JT who got a doc or info ahead of the family and public (with an inside source or paying I'm sure) and he blasted it on JT/WS and trouble resulted. He got in trouble or seemed to and JT should have been and damage control kicked in fast.

But yes, once filed and if available publicly because of it, the family or their atty should be able to get such too. In this case, it's just that he wasn't aware before it hit. I'm more talking of how the DA and P and LE need to be ahead as much as they can keeping the families informed. And how it isn't the main part of their job or what they consider most important at times, they have their jobs to do. Families also need more imo than a victim advocate. I talked to a deputy for months right up until he was arrested and charged and then that deputy informed me that's when it would be handed off to the vic advocate and I'd not have contact with him any longer and I should call her. That's how our system works anyhow, here. She was very nice but it isn't the same. And I had to go looking to talk to the detective in the first place. And I first contacted the sheriff who put me to the deputy, who I can't complain about at all. Man that guy was smart. However, hurting families shouldn't have a to go looking for contact and most want or need to hear from someone if not daily, weekly, and ideally they should know when something is filed before the public and internet does OR at least they should be apprised not to panic when they see a bunch of defense filings etc. for instance. I can't put it all into words right now very well.

It just needs to change a bit I guess is what I'd say. I believe in open and public records big time but in this fast age, the family if possible should still get a head's up. And they can't do it all, they are reeling. And yes, their atty should have been on the ball but being on the ball might be just hours and I'm sure it isn't their only job/client.

I'm probably making no sense but am trying. I guess as I said I checked constantly like for filings in ours online and then I'd send my sister to go get copies of anything filed before sometimes the P or detectives even had been able to look at such themselves probably. I knew one could do that, many don't. My sister worked for attys most of her lifetime but they were big time corporate attys and she knew nothing about our home state or the criminal process. I knew a little from working for attorneys in my 20s (a long, long, long time ago) and two of them did criminal law and yet I don't think I ever saw a murder in our area with them lol, we just didn't have much. But I knew how you get records in our state and that they were all publicly accessible and this was long before the filings would show online.

Sorry. Let me try to gather my thoughts and make more sense. I guess what I mean is the families shouldn't have to figure out how to do all this on top of the grief, loss, and there's a need and a gap. My family has an entire book of all filed, etc. and once my sister knew from me one could get these things, she was on it all of the time. I couldn't have done it for a couple of reasons but I knew one could and told her and she was able to and she did so above and beyond.

I guess in a nutshell is that victim families NEED someone explaining, doing and keeping them informed but LE and detectives and DA's NEED to be doing their jobs and shouldn't need to babysit either as part of them when we really do want them on the main thing of justice and charging and trying, etc.

I'm well aware this wanders and probably isn't very put together. I'm just meaning there's a gap and a need. I was very happy with our detectives and the prosecutor and yet I saw such clearly at times. Victim advocates are to fill that void but they don't have the same access and that's another story.

I don't think I answered very well...

SOMEONE should be on this for the families. It certainly isn't the judge's job either BUT victim families and victims really do get the shaft and there are needs that should be filled.

And yes, their attorney should have been on it too. I'm almost positive the Gonzales have an attorney and most families can't do that either. I asked early on if our family should find someone to like take care of things for us, I was told no...

And I don't know how it's going for them and there are FOUR different families but again I can't complain as to ONCE in touch (and we had to do that), who I talked to was very good and he was stuck with at least an hour a week with me for months, answering every various question I or my family has.

ANDDDD I am wandering... They just should have known before the public. Even if a split second.

Early morning. Hope all excuse the long wandering post. Just a big believer in a lot of things in the system need some fixing and they need to realize too things are rapid fire as to information but the system and people in it are busy or sometimes very slow as is the legal process....
This is all I am saying in my post and I think you agree by the sound of it.

"They should, though, definitely have a victim's advocate or liaison provided by LE who can help them."

I mean we are used to delving and diving to find things aren't we?
 
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This is all I am saying in my post and I think you agree by the sound of it.

"They should, though, definitely have a victim's advocate or liaison provided by LE who can help them."

I mean we are used to delving and diving to find things aren't we?
Yes, definitely. I got stuck on what I think is an issue, that victim families need more than they get imo. Yet I also get that it shouldn't be the P's and detective's jobs necessarily either. Anymore than it should be a teacher's job to babysit but they end up having to do that on top of all else. BUT the families need it too and that gap needs to be filled. Families have missing kids and get to wondering if anything is even being done because investigations aren't shared, etc. Yet the family is of course about ready to go off the deep end as every minute to them counts. Just for an example.

We do agree, I'm just kind of going off the track a bit.
 
Yes, definitely. I got stuck on what I think is an issue, that victim families need more than they get imo. Yet I also get that it shouldn't be the P's and detective's jobs necessarily either. Anymore than it should be a teacher's job to babysit but they end up having to do that on top of all else. BUT the families need it too and that gap needs to be filled. Families have missing kids and get to wondering if anything is even being done because investigations aren't shared, etc. Yet the family is of course about ready to go off the deep end as every minute to them counts. Just for an example.

We do agree, I'm just kind of going off the track a bit.
I do hope that this is now being addressed but if the parent of one of the victims is not aware then clearly in this case there is no victim advocate/liaison or they are not doing their job.

I think that it is even going the other way in some instances - just look at the support for the murderer in the United Healthcare CEO case.
 
I do hope that this is now being addressed but if the parent of one of the victims is not aware then clearly in this case there is no victim advocate/liaison or they are not doing their job.

I think that it is even going the other way in some instances - just look at the support for the murderer in the United Healthcare CEO case.
Well, here filings go through the Clerk (in all states I believe) and now with electronic filing, such still does and the Clerk has to okay such before it loads to where the judge and attorneys can see such. Those are the only ones with access. I know this because of even my divorce when that rotten atty was gone and for a time I had to represent myself. I had to call the Clerk to explain and get the right password and credentials, etc. When one is represented you can't look at it, but your atty. can.

Now that's not the same as the public court system and site where it will show something was filed. That's how we knew in the murder case. I'd see a complaint, affidavit, motion, etc. was filed and then send my sister to get it at the Clerk's office. The attys and judge though have instant access once the Clerk uploads the document to the private system. I don't believe the vic advocate or the deputies etc. would in any way. It's only the parties and judge. Now from there I'd assume the prosecution would have to inform the Vic advocate who is a part of that office (pretty sure) I'd think. And an outside attorney would not have that even and would likely have to go get a copy, or something on that order, call, keep track themselves on the public site. No idea but that would be my guess.

Now if you take an area like ours, all it would take is the P being busy on another cases or in court or the vic advocate out sick, etc., etc. for it to be a day even or two before reviewed and seen. In the meantime, news or a YTer like The Docket has seen that such is filed and calls or goes in person or and gets a copy and in short order it's on the internet.f

So I can see how even good people in the case can have not reached the families to inform them before that happens. Also, families better keep each other informed and keep their numbers up to date, etc. They don't call every single family member either, at least they didn't in ours, the one they do call needs to inform the others. Meaning I would tell my mom for instance, sister, and so on.

Not 100% sure I have this entirely right but it's close. And I don't know ID, they may even have more rapid ways of getting docs. In our county one still has to write or go physically to the office although perhaps a law office or something like that would be able to call and get a copy emailed, not sure. It wasn't the case way back when, they'd have to write and send a check or go down there to the courthouse.

I'm just too longwindedly saying the vic advocate or liaison would not get such first imo and likely rely on being told or having it passed to them.

And again, that things need to change.

We also see cases where such is leaked before being officially filed or such is the minute it IS filed.

And that they're just not keeping up with how fast things rapid fire like can spread.
 
Extremely different hearing it than reading it. Wow.

And yet, also, the same...

It makes little sense the story is wanting to be told by I assume D about a masked man and yet they think Xana was just drinking and is passed out something like 6 or 7 hours later... I'm not sure why one would connect the one thing to the other, not assuming foul play or something worse wrong if telling about the guy is paramount yet only thinks the friend is drunk and passed out, etc...Alsoj long after the other roommates were not answering either....

I'm even allowing for the age and possible state of mind and/or inebriation.

It doesn't really explain much imo. You'd think help would be first and foremost if they thought she was alive yet hours later but also no one seems to be yelling or looking for the other roommates or mentioning them. It's one thing to leave someone sleep if you think they are sleeping off a party but not when something is wrong in the home, a masked man was seen, and 911 over an unconscious person...

In no way am I doubting BK did this, I'm just trying to figure this out even allowing for age, partying, etc...

And there's a dog... Kaylee's dad spoke and he did talk of how they'd prank and that there was a lot of partying trying I guess to explain this reaction, etc.

I don't really have any thoughts or judgment on it, I'm just not getting it.

So something is bad enough 911 is being called yet no one is trying to help the unconscious person and no one else (other roommates) are wondered about or being looked for. I'm assuming they MIGHT not have known Ethan stayed over. She's certain enough to feel a need many hours later to try to tell of the masked man and that seems to indicate a certainty of wanting the cops to know of it but again it's only a call about an unconscious person aside from that...

They have people with them at this point and it's daylight...

I'm not thinking anything really, I'm just not getting it... I can get maybe not wanting to think anything else is wrong or face anything but the masked man is still more important for her to try to get across, when the dispatcher needs to know if the friend can be saved, than trying to resuscitate or find the others and see if they are safe too.

And again I'm allowing for age and shock and more.

I'm not thinking of anything nefarious on their part, I just think it goes back to original thoughts and these questions keep coming up and have since the beginning...I'm also only talking it since the defense certainly will drill into this.

Although some experts out there are thinking there will be a deal here, trying to mitigate, get the DP dropped.

The only other thing I think is there is more, meaning other communications, other phones, although it may well not come in?

This hours long lag in time has been a thing from the start and it still is.

Again it does make me doubt him as the perp one bit but it will come up IF this heads to trial.
 
I can’t get over that they called almost at noon. And they still didn’t know that the rest of the roommates were killed? We’ve read that there was blood everywhere! Maybe they’re that naïve. What a sad, sad situation all the way around.
It's definitely an issue. I also am one that doesn't believe they both fell asleep, passed out and so on. Could be but I'm not leaning that way. Meaning the roommates.

We have the texts from D's phone now but I don't think that was all of it or the end of communications...

I can see being WORRIED, wanting to be in denial, and so forth.

News in the beginning of cases imo is hard to trust, they get so much wrong and vary in the first days but I remember it said they had all sorts of friends there, male friends, etc. when calling or LE responding and so on. Whether true or how many, hard to say unless someone else knows if that ever came out. We now know from the dispatcher that she had to deal with/talk to at least four people... I listened to it a couple of times yesterday. I heard one male towards the end and the main person I felt was the neighbor sounded fairly young too but a lot more mature or calm. IF I have the parties right.

I thought D also called her dad, but don't quote me on that, heard it back when... I THINK.

I just don't get as I said in my other post you think the roommate is just passed out many hours later yet you want to tell about the masked man AND you aren't checking on the other roommates you couldn't reach??

I also think by the phone transcript earlier that maybe B wasn't buying D's texts meaning she thought oh sure, you saw a masked man... I only mean D was freaked but not sure B was, she hadn't seen him, etc. and maybe put it down to drinking, youth, etc... I think it likely the girls were together after the last communication we saw and/or were using a different phone...

Again, not a thing about any of this changes what happened or what I believe BK did. It's just really hard to understand the big lapse of hours and then when a call is made, they still didn't seem to know Xana was dead or where anyone else was...

It's been said by some out there that they likely beat selves up or were ensuring anything was out of the house is another theory, and I hope none of the four lived for some hours because you'd beat yourself up more, I know I would. I sure don't understand this but I think it's down to it was near campus, it was a party house, pranks were pulled, they are young... Kaylee's own dad said as much recently....Very recently.

I'm with ya though, I don't understand the many loss of hours and the unconscious things while wanting to get the story out about the man instead of helping an unconscious friend...If it's tried, it is almost a given these questions will be asked.
 
I tend to think there was some major immaturity in that group. I don’t think they're to blame for anything, just possibly not quite ready for the world in general.
 
And if sleeping until after noon was their thing, especially after a night of partying.
The only thing is that they were already scared about some guy walking through the house. I guess they just didn’t put two and two together that he was killing people. Why would they?
 
It's been speculated (or maybe stated outright?) that the one roommate on the second floor did run downstairs after the text exchange.
I think it's entirely possible that they were too scared to go check upstairs again when the rest of the house was still not responding to texts or calls the next day. They did call someone else. Hunter I think? Regardless, I think they had this other person go check, and that's who found the bloody scene.
Maybe he didn't want to scare them even more. He probably just shouted something like "call 911" and not "holy crap they're all dead".
 
I don't know about the group although we do know they all partied a fair bit allegedly, sure had their fun, but a few were supposedly pretty good students too but who knows.

One roommate though I can't help but feel may be fairly immature, very immature even, not sure about the other and yet it's understandable to shock or fear that may have come in.

In no way though do I feel it changes anything about what happened or who has been charged and evidence shows did this.

While drinking, and even drugs, may have went on, she is texting, making sense, saw the guy, heard things and so on at 4 past in the morning.

I did not know that it has been stated she ran down to the other's room but one could guess it from the texts and ending to them. I recall back when Hunter being named but only one person down is mentioned in this 911 call and only as unconscious.

Personally not a thing about this from the first day until now a long time later makes me doubt they have the right guy or even doubt the roommates but it will be a thing at trial imo. Thar's a lot of hours. And then there's a dog, did anyone check on the dog, was the dog barking, did anyone let him out, etc.... Was he in his kennel or loose...

We will I guess find out more as all goes on.

I don't have any "doubts" re the roommates at all, and I also think a jury will see past it without much problem but we ask here, not just me, why so many hours later...

I don't put it down to drinking though because again the texts were coherent and all were asked if they were up, etc.

Not a thing about any of it however gives BK any break from things the obvious evil perp/POS murderer. Imo.

I'd only say as I have already that the P needs to get out in front of this at trial before the D hammers.

There's a lot of thought though that some deal may be struck here. We don't always see it but have where the DP is traded for life sentence/s. His atty is trying to get the DP off the table which would bring a deal down some I suppose....? Or maybe it is hoped?

I've followed Scott on this one to stay up on it and he's a D attorney himself but thankfully not the type some are and while I hated it he said she's doing her job, but he also doesn't go for the defendant in every case by a long shot.

I guess we will see if it heads to trial or not. Moscow and the powers that be really want it to be held when school is out... So a delay would mean likely another year...
 

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