The Beach and the Pine Barrens

: Hey everyone!

I'm very new here! First time posting {although I signed up a week or so back}!...

Before I go on I'm going to give all of you a little background. When I was really young {like 6 and 7} I got this idea that I wanted to become a cop when I grew up. That wouldn't have been possible because I have a physical disability from birth. Then I was a victim and survivor of two different crime incidents. It was after one of those that I began diving into studying criminal profiling. Mainly in an attempt to learn how to be more proactive in terms of my safety {because using a gun isn't possible for me} and figuring out what to look for. Reading material at that end consisted of books by {among others} John Douglas and Roy Hazewood. As well as Ann Rule {who btw is local for me} Patricia Cornwell's .book on Jack The Ripper. And "Severed" by John Gilmore. When I'm not studying true crime and criminal profiling then I'm making animated films about rock musicians...

Pardon the casual tone everybody...

So let me get down to topic here...

Been looking at the eastern USA. Long Island and Manorville. And {without making the attempt at random speculation} I'm wondering something...

We've got a series of murders on Gilgo Beach and and a series of murders in the Manorville pine barrens. Both sets of murders have a similar victimology. But disposal in each case. Victims on Long Island are arranged neatly in a row. The literal trophy garden. The victims in the Manorville pine barrens were dismembered and dispersed {and some victims have been transported back and forth}...

So do we have one killer here or two different killers???...





.

Get back to me on this...
Thanks!
Raven

 

[GrandmaBear]

: Hey everyone!

I'm very new here! First time posting {although I signed up a week or so back}!...

Before I go on I'm going to give all of you a little background. When I was really young {like 6 and 7} I got this idea that I wanted to become a cop when I grew up. That wouldn't have been possible because I have a physical disability from birth. Then I was a victim and survivor of two different crime incidents. It was after one of those that I began diving into studying criminal profiling. Mainly in an attempt to learn how to be more proactive in terms of my safety {because using a gun isn't possible for me} and figuring out what to look for. Reading material at that end consisted of books by {among others} John Douglas and Roy Hazewood. As well as Ann Rule {who btw is local for me} Patricia Cornwell's .book on Jack The Ripper. And "Severed" by John Gilmore. When I'm not studying true crime and criminal profiling then I'm making animated films about rock musicians...

Pardon the casual tone everybody...

So let me get down to topic here...

Been looking at the eastern USA. Long Island and Manorville. And {without making the attempt at random speculation} I'm wondering something...

We've got a series of murders on Gilgo Beach and and a series of murders in the Manorville pine barrens. Both sets of murders have a similar victimology. But disposal in each case. Victims on Long Island are arranged neatly in a row. The literal trophy garden. The victims in the Manorville pine barrens were dismembered and dispersed {and some victims have been transported back and forth}...

So do we have one killer here or two different killers???...





.

Get back to me on this...
Thanks!
Raven

First of all, welcome! Nice to "meet" you. So we are talking about what are called the Long Island murders whether all of the deaths were one killer or two all bodies were on Long Island. I followed this case but am not as fresh and up on it as I was once. Recently I have looked back at it some and anything I may have missed that has happened since. I didn't do so in depth though.

Recently a thread was started on the Long Island murders but it is not real active yet as it was just put up as it is still an unsolved case and fairly well known.

So I for one am very interested in discussing it but again, am not up and fresh on all of the details. I do know there are some major differences in the killings/bodies/area and I believe, if I recall, time frame that make for a pretty good argument of two killers. I remain undecided though.

I either did not know or have forgotten some details. I am not sure I realized Gilgo's were more or less lined up and I am unsure if I knew of dismemberment, dispersal and transport of some bodies with Manorville. All of that sure lends to two killers.

And yet, I am not convinced and I really can't say why. I also wonder about two that knew each other and I don't really know how to explain why I wonder that at times. I just remain with this feeling that due to Shannon Gilbert and some of the info relating to that night, that there was a group possibly of powerful or influential or wealthy people that were "somebody" that had parties and their ways and activities went beyond most sexual fetishes, etc. to include possibly torture, murder, abuse, and such for lack of the words to put it better. It makes me suspect that there was more than one out at Long Island or at such "parties" that were into what the end result was going to be and the activities leading up to the deaths. This makes me wonder if the other murders was someone at those parties perhaps knowing the first killer and having his own "thirst" for killing but went on to do it in his way.

In no way do I know this nor is it anyone else's theory, it is just something I can't quite let go of wondering about. However, LE makes a point of saying Shannon Gilbert is not one of the victims of the Gilgo Beach killer and I fail to see how they can be sure of that. I don't buy it.

I guess one could also perhaps wonder if they are totally unrelated and it is just that in that area of NY to find somewhere remote and not in a city area to dispose of bodies would not be an unusual choice.

BUT there are killers that have changed their MOs or just changed over time and progressed to worse so like the dismembering, etc. I could believe was some type of progression. What you say though about orderly versus almost random dispersal is harder for me to think it is one killer. I tend to think of people who need that kind of perfection to line up things, etc. as unlikely to change and we would see some kind of order/obsessive perfection in everything they do.

To go the other way again, weren't they all prostitutes? And TWO serial killers both dumping on Long Island seems a bit unlikely too AND all escorts/prostitutes? Not impossible but that lends to one killer and seems unlikely to me to have two.

So I come back to, for no real reason other than some of what I say here, not being able to shake it is ONE killer OR at minimum they are connected and the killers know each other... Just an amateur who follows a LOT of crime and tries to learn and figure out my thoughts on what happened.

But here is my question to you that you didn't mention in your first post, what are your thoughts and which way do you lean and why? Since I am undecided, I still like to look at everyone's reasons for leaning one way or the other.

 

[Kimster]

I'm confused because I don't know anything about the Manorville murders. Was John Bittrolff convicted for the Manorville murders?

 

[Kimster]

OH! And to the planet, Raven!

 

[PesterLee]

Is Manorville in the same general area as the LISK killings?

 

[kdg411]

Is Manorville in the same general area as the LISK killings?

Does this help?

The Gilgo Beach Murders Were a Cold Case. Then a New Police Chief Arrived. (Published 2020)

After a decade of little movement in a series of killings on Long Island, a new sense of urgency.

www.nytimes.com

More than an unsolved mystery, the case of the Long Island serial killer has been an investigation with next to no visible movement — a procedural that even the police, at times, seemed to want no part of. It began with the discovery, 10 years ago, of four bodies wrapped in burlap and discarded on a desolate stretch of Ocean Parkway near Gilgo Beach. All the victims were women, and all had been escorts on Craigslist.

This was only the first of several grisly discoveries. Within months, the remains of as many as 16 victims had been found, from Gilgo Beach stretching out east to the pine barrens of Manorville. And yet for a decade, the police have announced not a single suspect or person of interest. Months passed, then years, with no comment from the department about the case.

@Kimster might have more on this though.

 

[PesterLee]

Does this help?

The Gilgo Beach Murders Were a Cold Case. Then a New Police Chief Arrived. (Published 2020)

After a decade of little movement in a series of killings on Long Island, a new sense of urgency.

www.nytimes.com

More than an unsolved mystery, the case of the Long Island serial killer has been an investigation with next to no visible movement — a procedural that even the police, at times, seemed to want no part of. It began with the discovery, 10 years ago, of four bodies wrapped in burlap and discarded on a desolate stretch of Ocean Parkway near Gilgo Beach. All the victims were women, and all had been escorts on Craigslist.

This was only the first of several grisly discoveries. Within months, the remains of as many as 16 victims had been found, from Gilgo Beach stretching out east to the pine barrens of Manorville. And yet for a decade, the police have announced not a single suspect or person of interest. Months passed, then years, with no comment from the department about the case.

@Kimster might have more on this though.

Thank you, yes

 

[Kimster]

Does this help?

The Gilgo Beach Murders Were a Cold Case. Then a New Police Chief Arrived. (Published 2020)

After a decade of little movement in a series of killings on Long Island, a new sense of urgency.

www.nytimes.com

More than an unsolved mystery, the case of the Long Island serial killer has been an investigation with next to no visible movement — a procedural that even the police, at times, seemed to want no part of. It began with the discovery, 10 years ago, of four bodies wrapped in burlap and discarded on a desolate stretch of Ocean Parkway near Gilgo Beach. All the victims were women, and all had been escorts on Craigslist.

This was only the first of several grisly discoveries. Within months, the remains of as many as 16 victims had been found, from Gilgo Beach stretching out east to the pine barrens of Manorville. And yet for a decade, the police have announced not a single suspect or person of interest. Months passed, then years, with no comment from the department about the case.

@Kimster might have more on this though.

This explained it better than I knew. Thank you!

 

[Mel70]

Thank you, yes

Oh good. I'll read it too.